What's up with the AI targetting casters?

[Hurin]

Just jumped back on after a 3-month hiatus. A buddy of mine and me jumped into the Orchard to check it out. My Wizard buffs his fighter and we approach some mobs. Well, the mobs start making a b-line for me immediately. Ok, I figure, it's just random or something, or my Scorching Ray must have hit them before the fighter did. Fine. So we move on to the next mob, a group of golems. Well, this time I wait and just stand there, not casting any spells, so the fighter can get the aggro. He's wailing on them with a scimitar... and they STILL run for me. I haven't even done anything, he's doing hundreds of points of damage to them, and they're STILL rushing for me, ignoring the guy that is wailing on them with a scimitar? Um, what? Same thing happens on many other mobs-- zombies, vampires intelligent and unintelligent mobs... I mean, ***? This is pretty ridiculous. Maybe I can see it with intelligent mobs like Vampires; but I certainly can't see this with non-intelligent mobs.

It really seems like DDO has it in for casters. They give Barbarians and Dwarves MORE hitpoints while changing the AI to target casters... this AFTER casters are already hurting.

Now, please, before you flame, realize that I play both casters and tanks. I enjoy playing both. And casters can still be useful. But I have to say the AI seems a little borked here when a mob will totally ignore the guy wailing on them with a sword and rush through an entire group to reach one guy standing doing nothing at the back of the party. This does not work to promote balance amongst the parties, and it isn't really kosher with PnP DnD when unintelligent mobs are targetting casters. So I do have to say thumbs down on the way this works.

Just my 2 cents.

[Mercules]

But I have to say the AI seems a little borked here when a mob will totally ignore the guy wailing on them with a sword and rush through an entire group to reach one guy standing doing nothing at the back of the party.

And what tactics do we use currently?

[sigtrent]

I have seen some dev comments that lead me to believe there is some code that causes monsters to seek out party casters more often than other classes.

From personal expereince I've seen it more when playing a cleric or rogue and noticing monsters come to the back lines looking for the casters. As a fighting character, I tend to be focused on the stuff I'm attacking and it ususlay stays agroed on me no problem unless someone has dropped a bomb on it before I got to it. Often as a melee I feel like a linebaker and my job is to intercept any mosnter trying to walk past me. But I've certainly found that being the first person a monster sees is fairly good for getting them to agro on you.

It seems unlikely that a guy with a scemitar is doing "hundreds of points of damage" without having agro (I know how hard it is to hit a monster you are chasing and if you arn't chasing them they are agroed on you) No one with a scemitar is doing 100+ points a swing, even on a crit. (ok a paladin critting with a smite but other than that...)

Some folks are used to games where agro control is a fact of life. In DDO agro is a lot more fluid and unreliable.

So monsters will sometimes bum rush the caster but generaly it's pretty easy to cope with it.

[llevenbaxx]

They all must be able to read auras too. I have a wiz11/rog3 who often wheres leather armor and a bow and looks more a rog or ranger than anything. They B-line him before he ever lets a spell fly.

A good intentioned and sensible AI upgrade that wasnt quite a bullseye I guess.

[tharveysinjin]

And what tactics do we use currently?

Hmm, before you discount his post, read this line:

Maybe I can see it with intelligent mobs like Vampires; but I certainly can't see this with non-intelligent mobs.

I think he has a valid point here. Oh, and he also makes this point:

He's wailing on them with a scimitar... and they STILL run for me.

I agree. Whether the mob is intelligent or not, I think it is highly unlikely that you would ignore the guy that's trying to kill you while focusing on the guy whose only infraction is gracing you with his presence. This tells me that the coding for aggro is class specific to a fault.

I realize that players will do their utmost to take down enemy casters, and likewise, the NPCs we battle should also use that tactic. However, if I am trying to target a caster and an enemy tank starts beating on me, I am forced to deal with the most immediate threat, and, I think it only makes sense that the AI would do the same.

[Wardevil]

...not a scimitar (but that's okay because the khopesh design looks nothing like an actual Egyptian Khopesh and more like an over-sized scimitar) and I think the most I did in 1 swing was 109, but you get the idea...
Anyhoo it was funny watching the mobs all go running after Ultimus as I cracked my khopesh into the back of their heads.
Mercules, yes I agree people do go after mob casters first, BUT if one of the front line tank mobs then beats me almost to death, I might focus on him. What I was seeing last night was all of the mobs beating on Ultimus even though they were taking massive damage from taking my Khopesh in the back.
Pretty crappy tactic.

[KaKa]

I think it is worthy to note that the example you used when you stood and did nothing was when fighting the flesh golems. They have a weird agro that is not like other monsters and randomly bounce back and forth between all players present never staying in one place too long.

But also isn't it great that AI is smart enough to kill the caster the first? This is a good thing.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

As you stated, mobs will typically attack the player who is dealing the most damage to them. However, until persuaded otherwise by someone dealing damage, they will - all other things being equal (e.g. they fail a spot check on the rogue sneaking up to them, or one player is seen by the mob before another by running ahead) - by default, attack the player with the highest CHA.

This is confirmed by a dev, but I can't find the post.

Garth

[Hurin]

As you stated, mobs will typically attack the player who is dealing the most damage to them. However, until persuaded otherwise by someone dealing damage, they will - all other things being equal (e.g. they fail a spot check on the rogue sneaking up to them, or one player is seen by the mob before another by running ahead) - by default, attack the player with the highest CHA.

This is confirmed by a dev, but I can't find the post.

Garth

Thanks for the input, but I don't think that was the problem. My wizard's Charisma is 8.

As for those who say we players would do the same-- well, sure... because we're intelligent creatures. I can see the vampires targetting casters-- they're smart creatures. Golems and zombies? No, that's just ridiculous. And I don't think this happened a year ago-- it seems that this is a conscious change the developers made. I don't think it was a very good decision.

[ErgonomicCat]

And what tactics do we use currently?

Exactly.

I bet there a thread on the monster's forums:

Kobold Shaman:

What the hell, man? I have like 1/3 the hp of the warriors, who are up in the guy's face, and he still *JUMPS* over them to attack me? I've cast two magic missles. That warrior's sticking a sword in his crotch!!!

Turbine, please please please make realistic PIs, okay? That fighter *obviously* made Int his dump stat, and he has on an amulet of the brute, but he still charges straight for me when I'm still invisible! Obviously he's using cheats, with his 7 int.

I mean, sure, wizzies with 34 int can make good choices, but the big meat shield? Come on....

[MysticTheurge]

I think he has a valid point here. Oh, and he also makes this point:

{Intelligent vs. non-intelligent mobs}

DDO doesn't currently seem to make a distinction when it comes to AI. And that's something I think they ought to fix.

[Missing_Minds]

Mobs are flagged to attacks casters first. Arcane, then wizard, then cleric. Bard shifts up and down based on race.

And if you are a halfling, forget it. you are lunchmeat plain and simple. They will go after you first every time. Still haven't figured that part out yet.

As for the unthinking like zombies and fleshgolems? Don't, it is random, spur of the moment of who they'll smack at next. No amount of damage done will change this.

[Largo_Kyber]

We were running flesh maker's lab in the Orchard and as we were pulling mobs from the ligthing hallways, one of the casters went AFK. He made sure to go around the corner from where we were fighting. Would'nt you know it all the masterwork golemns we pulled charged right through the fire walls, past 3 tanks swinging smiters, around the corner and started hacking on the AFK'd caster. We had a good laugh, and we were able to save the caster without much trouble, but this certainly strenghtens the agrument that mobs go for casters 1st.

[LogannX]

Hmm 12 maximized empowered firewalls...I wonder why they target the casters.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

I recall (somewhat vaguely) that there was a dev comment that covered something similar to this a little while back.

If I'm remembering it correctly, they said that there was a bug in the mob's targetting AI that caused mobs to head for whoever was farthest away. It's not that they are targetting the casters first, it's that they are targetting whoever's in the back first.

If I could remember who said it, I'd go digging for it.... But sorry, I've slept since then and hit the reboot key.

[Spell]

And what tactics do we use currently?

Oh yeah. And we caster players have infinite mana for heightened maximized empowered spell casting with eschewed materials all the time.

If I had that kind of capability I could easily understand having an automatic starting aggro (like other MMORPG's I won't name) that has mobs climbing over the dual-weilding barbarians just for the opportunity to punch me in the face.

AND Don't start me laughing for the hate-reduction enhancements. These might work if I'm standing 500yds behind the meleers, shadow-walking, invisible, in sneak mode and with a high 'move silently' & 'hide" skills.

[LogannX]

Hobgoblin 1- "who should we try to kill first?"
Hobgoblin2- " I dunno maybe the big robot in the shiny white armor with the gigantic sword that was telling his friends all the crazy magic gear hes got on to make him unstoppable"
Hobgoblin3" Holy **** look out hes running figure 8s swinging his sword in every direction"
Hobgoblin 1-" actually what a bout that wafer thin guy in the robe wiggling his fingers he looks easier to kill."
Hobgoblin2- "oh ya and we can eat him after"

[VirieSquichie]

When they implemented the "improved" AI, it immediately became obvious that:

Monsters that suddenly see the whole party will attack those in BACK - class notwithstanding.

Monsters that get hit by any sort of spell (ok, almost any...I've seen about 3 that don't draw aggro) whether damaged or not will proceed to beeline towards the caster - whether they can see the caster or not, whether there's a cliff and lake in the way or not, whether the caster hides behind a large object, stealths and moves away quietly while still being out of sight...you simply can't lose them in most situations. There are a few ways to lose their aggro, but they're location and/or situation specific.

Monsters will not take any of their own abilities or traits into account, the AI treats nearly every monster the exact same way be they a kobold or a giant, unthinking zombie or enemy wizard, slime or bi/quadruped. Another caveat here, since the AI change happened I have noticed changes that are bringing things back to a more rational state, but there's quite a bit of work left for the devs to do. Oh, and the latest mod has made some monsters take forever to get from point A to point B, pausing frequently along the way...I think a pathing bug got introduced.

Monsters don't take our abilities into account, either...I've seen them spam-cast will-save spells on clerics and fort-save spells on fighter types, rather than try to hit us with the thing most likely to debilitate us. It's really funny when they feeblemind the party fighter or barbarian. Um, yeah. With tactics like that, it's no wonder the monsters get dead so much more often than the PC's.

[MrWizard]

there is no doubt that there is an issue.

dogs in low level quests will just run after me for no reason...no matter who attacks them..scorps too....I have to eventually shield block + potion to survive as I cannot cast with them continually hitting me.

other mobs same issue.....directly past others even after others hit them.

wondering if taking last level as anything but caster would maker things not attack first.

did missing in action today. party zerged to the t intersection and up to the right..I was way behind catching up after zoming in.

They engaged the trog and some dogs and a kobold or two.

when I hit the cornor I started to cast a summon monster but before i could finish a kobold, a dog, and a trog broke from the combat with the party and ran after me....I had to run in circles with the party running around try ing to hit them...finally I just stopped and hit shield block and drank potions...party killed them...THEY NEVER STOPPED ATTACKING ME during this time and died with everyone hitting them FROM BEHIND... they never stopped. I had not even casted a spell the whole time except for the nis casts due to getting hit over and over each round..

Yes, we attack casters, but If I am standing in a room and an acid cloud pops around me, how would I know where the caster was, and who it was immediately?

My lowbie is getting a tough time of it lately..my high levels do not notice much as nothing gets near them....but I have noticed that the pile of rats in the boneyard prety much do not attack ANYONE but me when I cloud and firewall.....cleric saves a lot of mana.

How would, or rather, why would a rat attack a caster? I would think a nice beefy fighter would make him hungry, not some scrawny lindsay lohan looking drow caster.

If anything, the aggro should be more realistic...can they see the caster? Did he cast something at them?
If the mob is so dang smart, why do they stand in the firewalls and other clouds? Instead of insta attack casters for non realistic reasons, why not program 'retreat' or 'avoid' in mobs so they stay away from dangerous things like walls and clouds....makes more sense then just 'knowing' a caster when they see them?

What if I donned armor...would they think I was a fighter and attack someone else.

In other news, my fighter is having a great time fighting mobs that are for the most part ignoring him...awesome kill counts and extra to hits from behind.

Don't believe me devs? come on for some low level runs....I think things are more apparent there then in the higher levels (also the ladder bug seems really bad in lower levels than higher levels....wonder if it is related to a skill or stat or level check for climbing or something)

[MysticTheurge]

Honestly, I ran through PotP about seven times earlier and none of the Aurum made a b-line for me (the cleric), like everyone seems to be talking about.

As far as I can tell, things aggro on the PC that they see first, or whoever deals the most damage. I generally don't pull aggro at all unless something saves against Destruction.