What's up with the AI targetting casters?

[Hurin]

Just jumped back on after a 3-month hiatus. A buddy of mine and me jumped into the Orchard to check it out. My Wizard buffs his fighter and we approach some mobs. Well, the mobs start making a b-line for me immediately. Ok, I figure, it's just random or something, or my Scorching Ray must have hit them before the fighter did. Fine. So we move on to the next mob, a group of golems. Well, this time I wait and just stand there, not casting any spells, so the fighter can get the aggro. He's wailing on them with a scimitar... and they STILL run for me. I haven't even done anything, he's doing hundreds of points of damage to them, and they're STILL rushing for me, ignoring the guy that is wailing on them with a scimitar? Um, what? Same thing happens on many other mobs-- zombies, vampires intelligent and unintelligent mobs... I mean, ***? This is pretty ridiculous. Maybe I can see it with intelligent mobs like Vampires; but I certainly can't see this with non-intelligent mobs.

It really seems like DDO has it in for casters. They give Barbarians and Dwarves MORE hitpoints while changing the AI to target casters... this AFTER casters are already hurting.

Now, please, before you flame, realize that I play both casters and tanks. I enjoy playing both. And casters can still be useful. But I have to say the AI seems a little borked here when a mob will totally ignore the guy wailing on them with a sword and rush through an entire group to reach one guy standing doing nothing at the back of the party. This does not work to promote balance amongst the parties, and it isn't really kosher with PnP DnD when unintelligent mobs are targetting casters. So I do have to say thumbs down on the way this works.

Just my 2 cents.

[Mercules]

But I have to say the AI seems a little borked here when a mob will totally ignore the guy wailing on them with a sword and rush through an entire group to reach one guy standing doing nothing at the back of the party.

And what tactics do we use currently?

[tharveysinjin]

And what tactics do we use currently?

Hmm, before you discount his post, read this line:

Maybe I can see it with intelligent mobs like Vampires; but I certainly can't see this with non-intelligent mobs.

I think he has a valid point here. Oh, and he also makes this point:

He's wailing on them with a scimitar... and they STILL run for me.

I agree. Whether the mob is intelligent or not, I think it is highly unlikely that you would ignore the guy that's trying to kill you while focusing on the guy whose only infraction is gracing you with his presence. This tells me that the coding for aggro is class specific to a fault.

I realize that players will do their utmost to take down enemy casters, and likewise, the NPCs we battle should also use that tactic. However, if I am trying to target a caster and an enemy tank starts beating on me, I am forced to deal with the most immediate threat, and, I think it only makes sense that the AI would do the same.

[Wardevil]

...not a scimitar (but that's okay because the khopesh design looks nothing like an actual Egyptian Khopesh and more like an over-sized scimitar) and I think the most I did in 1 swing was 109, but you get the idea...
Anyhoo it was funny watching the mobs all go running after Ultimus as I cracked my khopesh into the back of their heads.
Mercules, yes I agree people do go after mob casters first, BUT if one of the front line tank mobs then beats me almost to death, I might focus on him. What I was seeing last night was all of the mobs beating on Ultimus even though they were taking massive damage from taking my Khopesh in the back.
Pretty crappy tactic.

[KaKa]

I think it is worthy to note that the example you used when you stood and did nothing was when fighting the flesh golems. They have a weird agro that is not like other monsters and randomly bounce back and forth between all players present never staying in one place too long.

But also isn't it great that AI is smart enough to kill the caster the first? This is a good thing.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

As you stated, mobs will typically attack the player who is dealing the most damage to them. However, until persuaded otherwise by someone dealing damage, they will - all other things being equal (e.g. they fail a spot check on the rogue sneaking up to them, or one player is seen by the mob before another by running ahead) - by default, attack the player with the highest CHA.

This is confirmed by a dev, but I can't find the post.

Garth

[MysticTheurge]

I think he has a valid point here. Oh, and he also makes this point:

{Intelligent vs. non-intelligent mobs}

DDO doesn't currently seem to make a distinction when it comes to AI. And that's something I think they ought to fix.

[Missing_Minds]

Mobs are flagged to attacks casters first. Arcane, then wizard, then cleric. Bard shifts up and down based on race.

And if you are a halfling, forget it. you are lunchmeat plain and simple. They will go after you first every time. Still haven't figured that part out yet.

As for the unthinking like zombies and fleshgolems? Don't, it is random, spur of the moment of who they'll smack at next. No amount of damage done will change this.

[Largo_Kyber]

We were running flesh maker's lab in the Orchard and as we were pulling mobs from the ligthing hallways, one of the casters went AFK. He made sure to go around the corner from where we were fighting. Would'nt you know it all the masterwork golemns we pulled charged right through the fire walls, past 3 tanks swinging smiters, around the corner and started hacking on the AFK'd caster. We had a good laugh, and we were able to save the caster without much trouble, but this certainly strenghtens the agrument that mobs go for casters 1st.

[ErgonomicCat]

And what tactics do we use currently?

Exactly.

I bet there a thread on the monster's forums:

Kobold Shaman:

What the hell, man? I have like 1/3 the hp of the warriors, who are up in the guy's face, and he still *JUMPS* over them to attack me? I've cast two magic missles. That warrior's sticking a sword in his crotch!!!

Turbine, please please please make realistic PIs, okay? That fighter *obviously* made Int his dump stat, and he has on an amulet of the brute, but he still charges straight for me when I'm still invisible! Obviously he's using cheats, with his 7 int.

I mean, sure, wizzies with 34 int can make good choices, but the big meat shield? Come on....

[Spell]

And what tactics do we use currently?

Oh yeah. And we caster players have infinite mana for heightened maximized empowered spell casting with eschewed materials all the time.

If I had that kind of capability I could easily understand having an automatic starting aggro (like other MMORPG's I won't name) that has mobs climbing over the dual-weilding barbarians just for the opportunity to punch me in the face.

AND Don't start me laughing for the hate-reduction enhancements. These might work if I'm standing 500yds behind the meleers, shadow-walking, invisible, in sneak mode and with a high 'move silently' & 'hide" skills.

[sigtrent]

I have seen some dev comments that lead me to believe there is some code that causes monsters to seek out party casters more often than other classes.

From personal expereince I've seen it more when playing a cleric or rogue and noticing monsters come to the back lines looking for the casters. As a fighting character, I tend to be focused on the stuff I'm attacking and it ususlay stays agroed on me no problem unless someone has dropped a bomb on it before I got to it. Often as a melee I feel like a linebaker and my job is to intercept any mosnter trying to walk past me. But I've certainly found that being the first person a monster sees is fairly good for getting them to agro on you.

It seems unlikely that a guy with a scemitar is doing "hundreds of points of damage" without having agro (I know how hard it is to hit a monster you are chasing and if you arn't chasing them they are agroed on you) No one with a scemitar is doing 100+ points a swing, even on a crit. (ok a paladin critting with a smite but other than that...)

Some folks are used to games where agro control is a fact of life. In DDO agro is a lot more fluid and unreliable.

So monsters will sometimes bum rush the caster but generaly it's pretty easy to cope with it.

[llevenbaxx]

They all must be able to read auras too. I have a wiz11/rog3 who often wheres leather armor and a bow and looks more a rog or ranger than anything. They B-line him before he ever lets a spell fly.

A good intentioned and sensible AI upgrade that wasnt quite a bullseye I guess.

[MrWizard]

there is no doubt that there is an issue.

dogs in low level quests will just run after me for no reason...no matter who attacks them..scorps too....I have to eventually shield block + potion to survive as I cannot cast with them continually hitting me.

other mobs same issue.....directly past others even after others hit them.

wondering if taking last level as anything but caster would maker things not attack first.

did missing in action today. party zerged to the t intersection and up to the right..I was way behind catching up after zoming in.

They engaged the trog and some dogs and a kobold or two.

when I hit the cornor I started to cast a summon monster but before i could finish a kobold, a dog, and a trog broke from the combat with the party and ran after me....I had to run in circles with the party running around try ing to hit them...finally I just stopped and hit shield block and drank potions...party killed them...THEY NEVER STOPPED ATTACKING ME during this time and died with everyone hitting them FROM BEHIND... they never stopped. I had not even casted a spell the whole time except for the nis casts due to getting hit over and over each round..

Yes, we attack casters, but If I am standing in a room and an acid cloud pops around me, how would I know where the caster was, and who it was immediately?

My lowbie is getting a tough time of it lately..my high levels do not notice much as nothing gets near them....but I have noticed that the pile of rats in the boneyard prety much do not attack ANYONE but me when I cloud and firewall.....cleric saves a lot of mana.

How would, or rather, why would a rat attack a caster? I would think a nice beefy fighter would make him hungry, not some scrawny lindsay lohan looking drow caster.

If anything, the aggro should be more realistic...can they see the caster? Did he cast something at them?
If the mob is so dang smart, why do they stand in the firewalls and other clouds? Instead of insta attack casters for non realistic reasons, why not program 'retreat' or 'avoid' in mobs so they stay away from dangerous things like walls and clouds....makes more sense then just 'knowing' a caster when they see them?

What if I donned armor...would they think I was a fighter and attack someone else.

In other news, my fighter is having a great time fighting mobs that are for the most part ignoring him...awesome kill counts and extra to hits from behind.

Don't believe me devs? come on for some low level runs....I think things are more apparent there then in the higher levels (also the ladder bug seems really bad in lower levels than higher levels....wonder if it is related to a skill or stat or level check for climbing or something)

[MysticTheurge]

Honestly, I ran through PotP about seven times earlier and none of the Aurum made a b-line for me (the cleric), like everyone seems to be talking about.

As far as I can tell, things aggro on the PC that they see first, or whoever deals the most damage. I generally don't pull aggro at all unless something saves against Destruction.

[GlassCannon]

Honestly, I ran through PotP about seven times earlier and none of the Aurum made a b-line for me (the cleric), like everyone seems to be talking about.

As far as I can tell, things aggro on the PC that they see first, or whoever deals the most damage. I generally don't pull aggro at all unless something saves against Destruction.

I have rushed in as the crazy dwarf, enraged and fully psychotic, and half the monsters rush right past me and start mashing the cleric. Places seen: Shan To Kor(entire series), Inferno of the Damned, Tangleroot, Stormcleave... and I think Cabal for One. In almost all these cases the cleric was at the BACK of the party and rushed through everyone to attack specifically the Cleric and nobody else. I even whalloped a monster for 126 slash damage and it kept on going(it had a sliver of health left), attacked the cleric, and died when the ranger shot it down.

[Missing_Minds]

The problem here is that it really seems to be mob dependent.

I've noticed that dwarves seem to target who is in front of them a bit more often than other races.

Hobs and trolls make beelines for casters.

Ogers... will try to make it towards the caster first, but if anything smacks it, it iwll change direction. (so long as its action que allows it to do this) (this tested with range weapons and a wizard.)

Orcs... hard to say there. They'll make a rush for casters first then everything else much like we do. Probably the most like PCs I've seen.

Giants... caster then whomever hit them twice. Once is not enough.

Slimes go for casters first then whomever hits them. They will also ALWAYS try to flank you. It is this "race" that I have the biggest issue with the AI.

Vermin and animals.... They seem to have a habit of going after whom they see first.

Outsiders and magical beasts tend to target casters first.

Constructs... depends. WF go for casters first, Iron golems the casters. Clay and flesh golems... whomever they feel like.

Undead.... casters first unless it is zombies or mummies, then anyone is fair game at any moment.

Charisma does not matter. Tried this out with a paladin and sorc. Sorc had only 2 points more cha than the pali. They still tended to hunt down the sorc first even if the sorc was a good 50 feet away after the pali comes in. Pali is in their face, sorc hasn't attacked, pali hasn't attacked, Mobs ignored pali and went for sorc. *shrug*

Oh yeah, and for some reason, and it could just be me, but halfling ANYTHING just means munchy. Which really means bad stuff for my poor bard. I'll die in the Reaver and Dragon runs always at least once and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

I hate the slime AI the most.

[MrWizard]

I just did the cursed crypt normal with my 14th lvl caster..

The skeletons that were non casters ran right at me...no spells cast by me.

The red named skeletons ran by entiure group, all along the passageway to get to me some 60 feet away.

The silver flame dudes, especially at the end guy charged me....well, two fo them did, went through the entire party to do it too....

no doubt that as a caster they have added a 'target' robe to you and teh mobs will instantly attack you even if they are already engaged and you are a mile away....

plus side? IT was REAL REAL easy in a few dungeons I did today to simply 'haste' and run a MAJORITY of monsters around while the melee took them out one by one...

So forget web, clouds, hypnos, just haste and run in circles and the party wille asily survive as the mobs will ignore all but you and just follow you around.

Kinda a cheap exploit, hope they change the AI soon on that....but running circles is awesome....really works with specters as they will COMPLETELY leave the party alone....

kinda liking the new aggro, saves mana....lol

[bnrilfun]

My understanding and it makes total sense to me, is that the AI is now changed to target specific classes first. So Clerics and Casters are first to get Targeted. Quells make a beeline for the cleric because they are drawn like a moth to a flame.

And in the case when I play my sorceror that is exactly what they get a firewall maximized, heightened, and extended, and when I get level 16 empowered. Of course they now made flame retardent skeleton bones which is really bogus.

Doesnt Turbine take the seriousness of cancer right and eliminate the use of Asbestos covered undead???

Sorry to side track. Anyway I think its appropriate that they go after the squishies first it makes it easier for our fighters to get thier casters.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

My understanding and it makes total sense to me, is that the AI is now changed to target specific classes first. So Clerics and Casters are first to get Targeted. Quells make a beeline for the cleric because they are drawn like a moth to a flame.
The last official word that we had was that this is incorrect. They are not targetting specific classes. They are(sometimes) targetting whoever is farthest away when the mob gets aggro'd.

And in the case when I play my sorceror that is exactly what they get a firewall maximized, heightened, and extended, and when I get level 16 empowered. Of course they now made flame retardent skeleton bones which is really bogus.
Yummy yummy. There's nothing like some firewally goodness to light up a quest.

Doesnt Turbine take the seriousness of cancer right and eliminate the use of Asbestos covered undead???

Sorry to side track. Anyway I think its appropriate that they go after the squishies first it makes it easier for our fighters to get thier casters.
I agree that this would make sense. But as far as any Dev has told us, this hasn't been implemented yet.

My thoughts in red.