Scales run in Gianthold... has the difficulty been modified too much?

[Graz]

I’m not posting here to rant, and I may get some a few mortars from others saying how easy this quest is and such, but I’d like a dev to please step up and post some kind of reply to this message.

Last night I played with a group of people who have extensive experience in running the Stormreaver pre-raid. By extensive, let me preface that by saying that most of these people have suits of scales armor or robes on at least one of their characters or even multiple characters. And they did not buy the scales as such they acquired them by running the quest over and over again only trading within the semi-static group. Basically they run it every Tuesday and Wednesday night.

We ran the quest on Normal difficulty.

Now last night was the first time they have done the pre-raid since Mod 5 went live, so we were all interested to see what kinds of changes happened as we knew there would be some.

There was a post in the release notes for Mod 5 about some hiding places and such that were removed and we found these ‘removals’ right away. That was not a surprise, and was mostly expected.

The Blue Dragon and Giant were not too difficult. A few changes to the AI were seen, but this section of the quest we were able to complete with minimal difficulties.

The White Dragon and Giant were definitely modified. Why was the Giant modified to be immune to so many spells? Our casters were hitting him with maximized/empowered scorching rays and he was only taking 15-25 yellow damage. Also he was totally immune to firewalls? Was it believed that this part of the quest was simply too easy and needed to be toughened up? I’d also like to ask why was the Giant able to spam maximized Comet Falls on the entire party the whole time? We were fairly stretched out, I was about 1/4 across the room when the fighter that was tanking the Giant was hit with a Comet Fall, and I took damage? Why was the area effect increased so large? This part of the quest took us two attempts, but we did get it completed.

The Black Dragon and Giant were a whole different story. We tried a couple different approaches. We did get the giant down to a sliver, then focused on the Dragon, but the Giant was spamming himself with empowered Heals, and in a matter of about 15-20 seconds was at full health. Then he started dropping delayed blast fireballs on the party and these had to be maximized and empowered healing on the Dragon.

Many reported: You take 160 pts of fire damage from a delayed blast fireball, 30 is stopped by your fire resistance…?

The casters were wiped out in one shot. I was dropping resurrections and heals on the entire party as fast as they would either recharge or the scrolls would allow.

Also I’d like to point out that both the dragon and the giant were not missing on any melee attacks. One of our fighters had ~400hps, and about a 50AC, and I was having to cast heal spells as fast as they would recharge just to stay constant health on one player.

The acid in the room was also a bit extreme and was hitting for 60-80 pts each time you got lucky enough to be thrown into it. 30 was stopped by your acid resistance…

The AI on the Giant was obviously modified, but considering we ran this on Normal, this was far to the extreme of making it more difficult.

I’m not getting on the band-wagon of mobs should also have the mana restrictions the player have… but this was a massive modification to the quest that was far above and beyond “making the quest a bit more difficult”.

1 Cleric, 2 Casters, and 3 Tanks, we called no joy after the 5th party wipe.

I understand that you want to make the game a challenge, and there is always the issue of unbalanced game play, but the modifications to this quest definitely seemed excessive. I’d request that you review the changes you made and consider if these changes were a bit ‘to much’ on this quest, particularly the Black Dragon segment and on Normal difficulty…

Regards,
…Graz

[Shiranai]

I was in on that party with Graz.

For the black dragon/giant combo: one of the party wipes happened in about 9 seconds. We ran in, got aggro, 1 caster and 1 tank dead on 1 hit.

The excessiveness of the delayed blast fireballs was a bit over the top. Seems to me he was casting Elite level spells on normal.

The dragon, never got down more than 10% from max health. I could have killed the giant 2 times over and the dragon was always near total health. 1 caster on the giant, the rest of the group on the dragon and the dragon was barely scratched.

The gaint was casting: delayed blast fireballs, force missiles, and heals on himself and the dragon...these occured, from my perspective, continually.

The white dragon, we adapted after just one wipe, and then succeeded. The blue, no party wipes. Black, 5 wipes. Again, the black dragon was barely scratched in any of the attempts.

I hope a DEV does take a look at this thread and reply.

DEVs, please take a look at the 'balancing' of this quest and verify what should/should not be.

FYI: if you want to look at your logs, the quest was run from approx 11:00pm EST to 1:00am EST on Ghallanda.

[Kalanth]

Since I am a lemming in DDO, and the only time I have run this quest was as a cleric, I will ask the dumb question. Why do you keep one alive so you can kill them at the same time?

Cause the only thing I could say would be kill the giant, then work on the dragon, but I know you can't, just don't know why.

[Zenako]

mmm, thinking about the Black.

If the Giant was helping the Dragon so much, Kill it, hammer the Dragon Down more, keep killing the giant over and over until both it and the Dragon are down to slivers and then take them both?

Would that work or am I missing something?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

They have to die together, else the dead one will rez......and it starts all over....

Ive ran the Tor I dunno how many times, difficulty was always white hardest, blue second - cause the giant has ADD, then black was just a cakewalk...

Sounds like its not any more.....

[Beherit_Baphomar]

mmm, thinking about the Black.

If the Giant was helping the Dragon so much, Kill it, hammer the Dragon Down more, keep killing the giant over and over until both it and the Dragon are down to slivers and then take them both?

Would that work or am I missing something?

Dont think that would work Zen.

You'd take the giant out the picture for all of, what, 10 seconds? Not enough time to get the dragon down...the giant would be up and healing the dragon back to full in 12 seconds.....

[binnsr]

My guild ran it the other night to flag more alts (and get scales, of course). The blue actually ended up giving us the most trouble - and caused 2 party wipes (which I take credit for with my n00bish healing - she's a death priestess, not a healer, Jim!). Both white and black went down without a single issue (lost a sorcerer at each of them, but that's pretty much to be expected).
With the white, the cometfalls were all over the place - but since I'm usually tanking the giant on my other chars, I've never noticed where they hit other than the ones that hit right around me..

edit: I take that back - my faulty old-man memory again.. We wiped once on black due to miscommunication - one tank was using treason to off-tank the dragon so he could switch to the giant when needed to get them down together, but neglected to tell anyone that, so the one with agro jumped over to the giant and got tossed into the deep acid. He immediately died at which point, the dragon went berserk and destroyed both casters and the cleric (poor me) before helping the giant decimate the two survivors (ranger and pally).

imho, that is one of the best designed quests in the game..

[kungfu]

Just a suggestion.

We did a scale run the other day on normal. Not discounting your experience, but we didn't have any difficulties. I'll share with you our strategy and maybe it will or will not help you out on the black dragon. Basically, I play a 12 Barb/2 Fighter. I rushed the giant and solo'd him with a +1 Holy heavy pick of Greater Giant Bane. The rest of the party concentrated on the dragon. Once the dragon was down to a sliver we had 1 caster come over and help me finish the giant off. I personally had the giant down to about 30-40% before the cavalry showed up to help with the finishing touches. I have 530 hp's buffed/raging and only 44 AC. The giant stayed focused on me the whole time, didn't try to heal the dragon, and I really don't think that he tried to heal himself, maybe he did and I didn't notice, but ultimately it was inconsequential. Also, it very well may have just been the luck of the draw for us, not sure. I do recall, prior to the update, party wiping on the black dragon multiple times, even though we had no prior difficulties, which may have been attributed to crappy rolls on our part, etc. Anyway, sounds like you've had a ton of experience in this quest so not sure I'm stating anything new but just wanted to share what worked for us the other night. No party wipes that evening by the way. Just another scale run in our opinion. Hope this helps. Have a good one and good luck.

-Bal

[Missing_Minds]

*can't help but chuckle* yeap, experienceed group of people using the "you can't touch me, ha ha." areas are finally finding out how to beat it normally.

Ran it recently after mod 5. Nope, can't say the white dragon's giant changed what so ever. he's always spammed the comet falls, always had huge resistances. Nothing new here at all.

Black dragon giant. Wow... for an experienced group, are your tanks just not able to cut it or something? Black is the easiest of the trio to take out. I am *NOT* the best player in the game at all, nor do I consider myself uber by any means, yet my barbarian with aid of a cleric or bard for heals can take out any of the giants by himself. He can take out any of the dragons as well. Heck, often I have to jump over to a dragon to help out in some cases.

I saw NO changes in the giants or dragons with Mod 5 at all.

Little hint. Work together to bring them both down at about the same pace and you'll be fine.

Sounds like your casters started off with getting agro at the start. In my opinion, very dumb move. Yes, casters can drop them like a rock, but when the rock hits back your casters can't take it. Casters should hold off and do their best to actually keep the dragon and giants about even.

As for your blast balls.. *chuckles* funny... that is what we use protection spells for and lots of communication.

[maddmatt70]

Healers rule. You only need one dps or 2 char in group at most.. Get yourself 4-5 clerics or bards and you will never fail any quest, because well quite frankly healers rule..

Norg

[kungfu]

Little hint. Work together to bring them both down at about the same pace and you'll be fine.

Good point that I neglected to state. We constantly yell out where the dragon and giant are at healthwise. If the dragon is at 25% health and the giant is at 40% then move 1-2 players from the dragon to the giant to even it out. Sometimes it takes some maneuvering back and forth between the two to keep it relatively even. Constant communication, especially when they're below 50%.

-Bal

[Missing_Minds]

Good point that I neglected to state. We constantly yell out where the dragon and giant are at healthwise. If the dragon is at 25% health and the giant is at 40% then move 1-2 players from the dragon to the giant to even it out. Sometimes it takes some maneuvering back and forth between the two to keep it relatively even. Constant communication, especially when they're below 50%.

-Bal

Exactly because once one is about 50-25% alive... you can bet all heck will start to break loose. From the giant but in particular for the blue and black, the room.

[Graz]

Thanks for the feedback... both positive and negative.

I would agree with one of the previous posters that yes the black used to be the easiest...This really was not the case here.

Just to clarify, we were not using any of the 'you can't touch me ha ha' points. Those have been removed anyway. In fact, that is not a typical tactic that we use or would have suggested to try... the only difference being the undead skelly king. That was different, but still doable.

I do wish I would have recorded some video of the 4-5 attempts on the black dragon. Yes we went in with full buffs, yes most of the party did also have resist pro up... The difference was to use the word chaotic would be an understatement. The delayed blast fireballs and force missiles did not appear to be on any kind of timer. The Giant was able to cast both of these, perform a heal, and use a melee attack all within about 5-8 seconds.

All the tanks had either giant bane or greater giant bane weapons. We took the giant down to a sliver, one of the tanks was staying on the giant and everyone else shifted to the dragon. Then 2-3 delayed blast fireballs in about a 2-3 second intervals and half the party was dead. Turn to look at the giant, and he'd just dropped 2 additional sequential heals on himself.

Call it the (bad) luck of the draw, or whatever, but the modifications were definately not in our favor on this run.

...Graz

[Cruzer]

They way I've always ran the scales, and the way I ran it the other day after mod 5 and still worked.

1 cleric
2 casters
2 tanks
1 opentoanything.

Split up so that you have a mage & tank on one, dps & tank on the other. Have the 2nd mage watch the giant & dragon life and help when one dips lower than the other. My group never knew about the exploits until probably a few days to a week before mod 5 came out. I've taken out the fire giant with my barb as fast as 3 tanks have taken down the black dragon. All you really need to do is split up, damage them at the same time, and have someone as a floater to help anyone who falls behind.

Of course, white dragon gets a little squirrely with the cometfalls/etc, but if you have people that can do damage, heal, and play their classes right without relying on safe spots/etc, they all go down smooth like buttah. You could also think about taking shield clickies. Force does hurt, but its not awful.

[jaitee]

i ran it with 6 sorcs

we did fine, not once did we ever get low on sps, or hp

not once did any of us die, we were just that uber!

[Shiranai]

While the postitive and negative feedback is accepted, and maybe we need to adjust tactics a little....But you all overlooked something that you did not account for.

The acid (with protections) was doing about 30-50 pts per shot. The delayed blast fireballs were hitting everyone for 115 points (with protections), the force missiles (which I had never seen him use before) were hitting for 20-30 per hit at the same time(ish) doing heals on the dragon and himself. This all happening in about 8 seconds or so. Like Graz said, maybe we just got a bad roll for that set of dragon/giant.

We are all veterans of this quest. We've done it every week for 5 weeks (1-2 times per week). We even ran it back to back a little over a week ago and only had 1-3 deaths total.

The dragon, while being a little tougher than the giant, was barely getting scratched with 3 tanks on him. Again, maybe a different tactic was needed...but we have done this many times before and never had any problems until last night. This was our first run after mod5.

We will be going again soon enough (once we get rid of the debt).

[ahpook]

TO the OP,
I would guess you got some bad luck (or possibly a bug). We were running the black on Ghallanda at the same time and took him out the first try. I play with a casual static group and we had only beat the black dragon once before in about 4 tries. We squeaked out a victory when the giant went down early and he must have been a miilisecond from rezzing when the dragon died.

We were running with a barb, ranger, sorc, bard, and rogue and none of us has raid loot or dragon scale armor so we should have had more difficulty than your gang. We certainly didn't see what you were seeing and half of us were dead when it was over but that sure beats a wipe. Anyway, I wouldn't jump to too many conclusions based on the one run .

[Missing_Minds]

Just to clarify, we were not using any of the 'you can't touch me ha ha' points. Those have been removed anyway. In fact, that is not a typical tactic that we use or would have suggested to try... the only difference being the undead skelly king. That was different, but still doable.

My apologies, but that sure as heck sounded to me like what you were doing.

What it still sounds like you are doing is that you are concentrated on one then the other. As I posted above, both black and blue rooms go balistic once one of them is down to about 1/3 of their health. And pretty much so do the giants it seems. You have to keep them about even to minimize this damage unless you consider yourself uber enough to do it in the manner I think you are describing. Also if you keep them about even, I've not seen the giants toss many if any heals towards them self or the dragon.

The tank on the fire giant should NEVER take acid damage unless he/she gets thrown across the room. The tank on the black dragon should never really need to worry about much in the way of fire or lighting from the fire giant if the tank on the giant can actually hold agro. Tank on the giant keep his/her back to the force wall. That way he is the only one sucking damage and keeps the cleric set up there. If the wizard can pass out protects on occasion to help out, that is wonderful. I use clickies of shield on my fighter every minute to keep that protection up.

Blue dragon room. Everyone goes to the force wall and holds up there. The storm giant will not keep agro on anyone. If anything (and this is from personal most bias observation) the halfing with the highest charisma will be the primary target of him. (Yes, halfling with cha, doesn't matter about class) This allows the healer to spam mass heals while taking down both dragon and giant. If you are on the dragon pay attention to just whom you are actually hitting. Why? The darn giant likes to step in his pet so much you end up hitting him and not the dragon. If you have a ring of the djinn from PoP, that item is most wonderful here.

White dragon... well.. I've seen different groups take it out with different strategies. My own guild seems to have come up with about 4 different ones depending on the make up of the group. So really... all I have to say on this one is use whatever normally works for you. I will say that if you keep the giant back behind the ice pillars where he can't see the rest of the group, they won't be hit with his trio of comet falls.

[stonecircle]

Stuff always seems harder when they remove firewalls etc... because now you actually have to have tactics.

[Talakus]

Run it last night, and it was more difficult, the Giants and Dragons had higher saves. The Giant with the White Dragon, was casting Cometfall without doing his taunting gesture and would cast it right away on a wider scale. Giant with Black Dragon, was more resilient to cold based spells. I saw at a point purple numbers, yellow and none at times! And he was healing more than usual, it seems. The Blue Dragon/Giant Combo took 1 minute! So maybe there's a bug of some kind or pure bad luck, but I think someone from QC should take a look.
We only had one wipe on the white dragon, so it's still possible to do it, but beside those "safe spots"( I was not even aware of those) they have modified something else in the AI. And I'm not even mentioning that no skeletons spawns before the Gatekeeper and he appeared, therefore we were not able to complete the quest... Anyway this one I reported in the bug list.