Std Dwarf Cleric vs Ranged Elf Cleric

[elad]

Just started in on DDO a week ago and wanted to go cleric (what I always played in PnP)
Made the std dwarf cleric first (Lvl 3)
Str 12
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 16
Char 6
Extended Spell
Extra Turning (to make DV remotely useful)
But I was having issues watching health bars while keeping myself useful in melee.
So I made a Elven Ranged Cleric
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 10
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 10
Extend Spell
Point Black
So I could sit back and just hit tab to retarget and easily watch for dieing party members

Are both builds going to be long term feasible and just pick the one I like playing?
Or does both melee and ranged becoming useless later one?
I was hopeing with the more ranged spec (AP points and 2 feats) would keep the arrows viable.

Thoughts?

[Mad_Bombardier]

If you like sitting in the back and sniping, try to stay away from damage. Otherwise, you'll pull aggro off of the front line fighters and onto you and the backline casters. Look for bows with debuffing effects; Cursespewing, Destruction, Paralyzing, etc.

[Scalion]

In my honest opinion......This is a game of min/max builds if you really want to do things at the highest possible difficulty level. Without 18 base wisdom you won't be much of an offensive caster.

I have unlocked 32 point builds and I recently decided to make a melee oriented cleric. His starting stats are as follows:

16 str
8 dex
16 con
18 wis
6 cha

I'm sure you look at that from a pnp perspective and think it's overboard and not rounded enough, but this is not pnp.

In a world of +6 stat items and enhancements that make a huge difference on your build starting with a 8 dex means nothing because I'll have items to make up the difference.

On the other side, starting with a 16 strength might seem overboard, but this game pretty much requires a +30 to to consider swinging your weapon on endgame quests.

[elad]

so the 14 str dwarf, will likely not be able to hit the broad side of a barn later on. With the elf I'll just buff the to hit and not the damage likely.
Low lvl questing so far, the dwarf rocks the elf
But that doesn't weight much, cause anything can survive low lvl

[sigtrent]

The dwarven build is much better for you, especialy as a newer player.

An elven bow cleric is an interesting challenge but its more something you do just for the sake of doing it and not because it is especialy usefull.

[Impaqt]

In my honest opinion......This is a game of min/max builds if you really want to do things at the highest possible difficulty level. Without 18 base wisdom you won't be much of an offensive caster.

.

Gah!!!!!

My Original 28 Point Cleric.. WHo started with a 16 WIS...... IS an awesome offensive Caster.....

DC30 Destruction/Slay Living Save....

200+ Point per tick Blade Barriers

Poison Spells that hit for 18Points of CON Damage....


Thinking a Cleric cant be an offensive Caster because of 2 Points in Wisdom is pretty silly.


WIth a 20 STR, You can hit Plenty at End game.... You can self Buff up to around a +25 to hit rather easily + Other buffs, Dwarf Axe ENH, and +5/+10 on 3rd/4th swings....

14BAB (With Divine Power)
5 STR Bonus
3 Average Weapon
2 Dwarf Axe Attack
2 Recitation Self Cast
---
+26 First Swing
4 Greater Heroism (Gird or Wizard)
1 Haste
----
+31 To Hit FIrst swing with common Buffs.

[elad]

I think I got it settled, Going with dwarf using alot of the info from Grenfells post A Warpriest. Jurys still out on taking the paladin splash but plenty of time to choose. The build has high spell points for healing without much money spent on wands. And I'd rather contribute to damage via weapon than via offensive spells (creatures saving makes me sad)
Saves more SP anyways.

[Scalion]

Gah!!!!!

My Original 28 Point Cleric.. WHo started with a 16 WIS...... IS an awesome offensive Caster.....

DC30 Destruction/Slay Living Save....

200+ Point per tick Blade Barriers

Poison Spells that hit for 18Points of CON Damage....


Thinking a Cleric cant be an offensive Caster because of 2 Points in Wisdom is pretty silly.


WIth a 20 STR, You can hit Plenty at End game.... You can self Buff up to around a +25 to hit rather easily + Other buffs, Dwarf Axe ENH, and +5/+10 on 3rd/4th swings....

14BAB (With Divine Power)
5 STR Bonus
3 Average Weapon
2 Dwarf Axe Attack
2 Recitation Self Cast
---
+26 First Swing
4 Greater Heroism (Gird or Wizard)
1 Haste
----
+31 To Hit FIrst swing with common Buffs.

You say +2 dwarf axe attack, but a cleric (even a dwarf) doesn't have proficiency in any axes without multiclassing or burning a feat to get proficiency. If you multiclass you lose even more to the DC on your spells. 16 wisdom instead of 18 wisdom, + 1 fighter or pally level for weapon proficiencies (which I'm guessing is your answer to axe proficiency) means you lose 2 to your spell DCs...that's 10% and while it won't necessarily make you useless, 10% is enough to make the difference shift to your favor on high save mobs. On top of all that if you want any spell points for your job as a healer then you will not likely be casting recitation divine power, and divine favor for every battle.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you, but I think it basically comes down to this.

Every good cleric must be great at healing, and then they can choose to focus in one other area such as offensive casting or meleeing. If a cleric wants to try to have it all they will have some difficulties with all 3 on the most difficult quests.

[Scalion]

I'm a little odd when it comes to builds and I'd like to share a little of my own build. He's only level 5 now so I have a long way to go before I really see how it pans out in the end, but I know he won't be useless. Worse case scenario is I change a few feats around.

This build came into existance because I thought the warforged cleric 'follower of blades' enhancement looked kind of interesting and after trying it out and realizing some major drawbacks I found this build to be a better alternative in pretty much every possible way.

btw.
The main drawbacks to the warforged cleric were having to waste a feat on armor, not being able to heal myself well, starting with only 16 base wisdom, and needing to manage how I spent my turn undead to keep proficiency in the two handed sword (a follower of blades can use a turn undead to give themselves or someone else two handed sword proficiency).

Anyway, I decided I would rather spend that feat on axe proficiency for a dwarf instead of getting the adamantine body on the warforged. This enabled me to get 18 starting wisdom and heal myself. To make up for the +1 to attack that a follower of blades gets the dwarfs can take enhancements for +to hit and damage with axes. Oh yeah...in addition to the extra spell points from 18 wisdom, dwarfs can get dwarven faith for an even bigger spell point boost over the warforged.

I hope that in the end I'll have ok weapon damage and +to hit with my greataxe, but I want to focus on enchantment spells and be able to effective with crowd control spells (namely greater command and symbol of stunning).

I personally prefer not to multiclass any caster class because you lose spell slots, spell points, and DC.

[Impaqt]

You say +2 dwarf axe attack, but a cleric (even a dwarf) doesn't have proficiency in any axes without multiclassing or burning a feat to get proficiency. If you multiclass you lose even more to the DC on your spells. 16 wisdom instead of 18 wisdom, + 1 fighter or pally level for weapon proficiencies (which I'm guessing is your answer to axe proficiency) means you lose 2 to your spell DCs...that's 10% and while it won't necessarily make you useless, 10% is enough to make the difference shift to your favor on high save mobs. On top of all that if you want any spell points for your job as a healer then you will not likely be casting recitation divine power, and divine favor for every battle.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you, but I think it basically comes down to this.

Every good cleric must be great at healing, and then they can choose to focus in one other area such as offensive casting or meleeing. If a cleric wants to try to have it all they will have some difficulties with all 3 on the most difficult quests.

OK, lets say you dont multiclass.... You only have a +27 To Hit First Swing with an Axe.....

You dont need Divine Favor and Reciation.... I usually use one or the other... Divine Power + Recitation (ANd Recitation helps EVERYONE) is 70 Spell Points together... Extended..... Not that big of a deal.... and you only use DP when you feel like mixing it up in melee.

maybe your definition of a "Good Cleric" must be "great" at healing.... What exactly is "Great At Healing"? Is it keeping folks on their feet.. Or is it babysitting them and makining sure they always have Full red bars?

Very few spell DC's are based on Class level..... so Multiclassing 1 Martial Level doesnt blanket reduce your DC by one..... See my CLeric Guide for more answers there.

[Mad_Bombardier]

If you multiclass you lose even more to the DC on your spells. 16 wisdom instead of 18 wisdom, + 1 fighter or pally level for weapon proficiencies (which I'm guessing is your answer to axe proficiency) means you lose 2 to your spell DCs...that's 10% and while it won't necessarily make you useless, 10% is enough to make the difference shift to your favor on high save mobs.

Cleric levels only affects spell DCs that rely on caster level vs monster HD. Clerics who multiclass lose SP, delay access to spells, and 1 point on SR checks. That's about it.

[Impaqt]

Cleric levels only affects spell DCs that rely on caster level vs monster HD. Clerics who multiclass Sometimes lose SP, delay access to spells, and 1 point on SR checks. That's about it.

Fixed that for ya Mad.... Paladin/Ranger splashes can actually improve Spell Points...

[Scalion]

Cleric levels only affects spell DCs that rely on caster level vs monster HD. Clerics who multiclass lose SP, delay access to spells, and 1 point on SR checks. That's about it.

Perhaps I haven't read everything as well as I thought then. Are you saying a 13 cleric/1 melee class has the same DC on his greater command and symbol of stunning as a 14 cleric?

I was under the impression that DC works as follows....cleric level + wisdom bonus + feats + other enhancements.

I understand that not all spells follow these rules, but these are probably the two single most attractive spells to me as a cleric.

[Impaqt]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=122250

In Particular

You Will Lose the Following.
Spell Penetration: -1 to all Spell Pen checks. Spell Pen checks can get pretty high in elite level content. Every bit of bonus in Spell pen can show benefits for the Offensive Caster/Crowd Control Cleric.
The Spells that are Subject to SR Checks are: Destruction, Slay living, Blindness, Harm, Soundburst, Dismissal, Banishment, Curse, Doom, Bane, Command/Greater Command, Hold Person

Spell Points: -70 Spell Points Base. This can be made up however depending on what class you splash into your build.

Spell Slots: You Lose One Level 7 Spell Slot and 1 Level 6 Spell Slot

Spell DC's: Poison, Banishment, Dismissal, Break Enchantment, and Greater Dispel Magic loses 1 to each of their DC's. SR:Mass losses 1 Pt of Spell Resistance.

-1 Fort Save
-1 Will Save
-1 BAB (Which may not seem like much, but can be the difference between having a 4th Attack without Divine Power up)
-8 Hit Points
Spell damage - almost always level dependant.


So no, Greater Command and Symbol spells are not HD Dependant.... 1 Point of SpellPen canbe made up via Enhancemenets or Feats... as can spell DC's

[ErgonomicCat]

The formula for your Spell DC is Spell Level + Caster Mod + Feats/Items.

Your caster level is irrelevant, except for determining if you have access to the spells.

A few spells, shown above, use caster level in the spell effect.

-1 Fort Save
-1 Will Save
-1 BAB (Which may not seem like much, but can be the difference between having a 4th Attack without Divine Power up)
-8 Hit Points
Spell damage - almost always level dependant.

But all of the above will be replaced with whatever you splashed in.

So if you splash a level of paladin, compared to a cleric 14, you have:

+1 Fort
-1 Will
=BAB
+2 HP
+Cha to saves
Aura of Good
By my math, -7 SP.

[Impaqt]

The formula for your Spell DC is Spell Level + Caster Mod + Feats/Items.

Your caster level is irrelevant, except for determining if you have access to the spells.

A few spells, shown above, use caster level in the spell effect.



But all of the above will be replaced with whatever you splashed in.

So if you splash a level of paladin, compared to a cleric 14, you have:

+1 Fort
-1 Will
=BAB
+2 HP
+Cha to saves
Aura of Good
By my math, -7 SP.

CHA Bonus to Saves is Paly 2.....

Spell Points +/- will depend on your Wisdom Score..

[Scalion]

Thanks for clarifying these few points. It definately gives me a different perspective on building my cleric.

I don't know that I'll actually drop a cleric level, but I can definately see that it doesn't gimp your cleric as much as I previously thought it would.

[Grenfell]

The formula for your Spell DC is Spell Level + Caster Mod + Feats/Items.

Your caster level is irrelevant, except for determining if you have access to the spells.

A few spells, shown above, use caster level in the spell effect.



But all of the above will be replaced with whatever you splashed in.

So if you splash a level of paladin, compared to a cleric 14, you have:

+1 Fort
-1 Will
=BAB
+2 HP
+Cha to saves
Aura of Good
By my math, -7 SP.

Don't forget that the Aura of Good is +1 to all saves and AC, as long as there's no other paladin around.

So from a solo standpoint (which i do quite a bit on my warpriest), it's actually +2 fort, +0 Will, +1 Reflex, and +1 AC.

/gren

[elad]

Yeah it seems a decent deal. You also get all marshal weapon proficiencies which saves you a feat for the warforge/dwarf guy.
I think it'd be alot of fun to be able to choose and use a larger variety of weapons.

[RemoJr]

i think i need help...i read STD on your title and thought it ment something eles....think about, you'll get it.