20th completions

[spyderwolf]

i fell that the 20th completions not being retroactive is abad thing. i did the tian raid last night for my 32nd completion but didnt get the abbreivated loot list for end reward. sent help ticket in asking why? today miranda responded with they dont matter absically and to post here. if you have more than 20 completions and they dont matter why did you guys start the counters with all our completion numbers? if they dont matter why didnt you start everyones completions numbers at 0 when the mod went live? as the system works now you are rewarded if you did 15-18 raids more so than if you have been playing and putting time into game and have it done 21+ times.

[spyderwolf]

and to add somethign futher why not just if you had more than 20 completions just set everyoen who had above 20 to 19 so that their hard work wasnt negated.

[Strangelove66]

I agree, there should be a retroactive "20th completion", simply because the questing or "work" was already completed by a 20+ character. I feel particularly bad for those that start at 20 even, as they have to complete the raid 20 more times (at least two months) before seeing the raid loot reward screen.

And the reason for starting at a number greater than zero was to "be nice". In your particular case, if you have completed a raid 32 times you only need 8 more completions to hit your 20 denomination (40). If they wiped everyone to zero, you would need to complete the raid 20 times, along with everyone else. However, that does not excuse the fact that there should be a retroactive element in place. I agree that if a retroactive raid loot reward list can be implemented through computer programming, it should be.

(Just to note, I don't suppose that would be very difficult, as long as they give the quest reward to anyone over twenty completions, or twice to anyone over forty, etc.).

[Borror0]

My point of view on this is that we had a system that gave us better chance of loot before.

Now 1/6 Normal, ~1/5 Hard, ~1/4 Elite
Before 2/X where X was the number of party members.

It is for this reason, I believe, that they didn't give us retroactive completions.

[Strangelove66]

My point of view on this is that we had a system that gave us better chance of loot before.

Now 1/6 Normal, ~1/5 Hard, ~1/4 Elite
Before 2/X where X was the number of party members.

It is for this reason, I believe, that they didn't give us retroactive completions.

I can see your point, Borror0, and let us assume for a minute that you have correctly identified the dev's reasoning. If we were to talk strictly about fairness - do you think it is acceptable from a fairness perspective that someone with 19 completions gets to pick from a raid loot menu their next run and that someone with 20 completions has to do the raid twenty times to see a similar menu? They both put in about equal time and effort and should be rewarded equally.

I think it is in Turbine's best interest to take a fresh look at the 20th completion situation. Turbine should show its customers and outsiders that they understand their player's thoughts and are in tune with what they want. When the enhancement system was revised in 3.3, everyone got a dragonshard in case they wanted to switch around feats that may have been made less powerful. When dragonmarks were added, a "free respec token" was given to warforged and drow. And I think when the raid loot system was changed, Turbine should give a retroactive raid loot reward list to players with over twenty completions.

Again, I can see Borror0 why they may have not given us a retroactive reward list in the first place, but can you see from my example why it might be a good idea to give us one?

[Lithic]

...snipity-doo-da...
Again, I can see Borror0 why they may have not given us a retroactive reward list in the first place, but can you see from my example why it might be a good idea to give us one?

I find it terribly funny that someone who needs 8 more (2 less than the average player) for a free raid loot is complaining.

The most fair way would have been to simply set everyone to zero, but I'm betting that they could not reset these timers for some other unrelated reason (perhaps it would have led to everyone's quest repeat timers being reset).

In any case they wont change this now. In another week the ones whining that they weren't at 19 completions will stop hoping to squeeze out more free raid loot, and the forums can go on to the next petty request for cloaks or something hehe.

Edit: I should add that if they followed strange's suggestion, they would likely be giving the heavy raiders at least 4 raid list items (one per pre-mod5 raid), possibly lots more if he meant that someone with 65 completions should get 3 choices. Which is rediculous as the dragonshards or free respec tokens, to which he compares this extra reward, are orders of magnitude easier to come by.

[spyderwolf]

my arguremnet with the gm were i would've been perfectly fien with stating at 0 and doing it 20. but they gave us retroatcive numbers. therefore the numbers shoudl mean something. i have been raiding titan for 7 months now looking for two items. why if i have completed it 20 times do i not get a list considering that i didnt get one on my 20th?

[LeLoric]

By resetting the numbers to 19 it wouldnt give a fair projection as to how many raids a person has done which a lot of people like to know that.

Also this leaves up being able to add things in the future concerning number of raids completed that would be accurate instead of having incorrect numbers.

[Blind_Skwerl]

what is the command that shows the raid completions? My memory seems to be clouded by all the malted hops and bong resin.

[MysticTheurge]

I can see your point, Borror0, and let us assume for a minute that you have correctly identified the dev's reasoning. If we were to talk strictly about fairness - do you think it is acceptable from a fairness perspective that someone with 19 completions gets to pick from a raid loot menu their next run and that someone with 20 completions has to do the raid twenty times to see a similar menu? They both put in about equal time and effort and should be rewarded equally.

No. It certainly would've been "fairer" to start everyone at 0 completions for the purposes of this reward system.

However, the devs thought they'd be nice and just leave everyone where they are which means that some people (not all, but some) are a bit ahead of the game. It's not fair, but then, that's life.

[Strangelove66]

No. It certainly would've been "fairer" to start everyone at 0 completions for the purposes of this reward system.

However, the devs thought they'd be nice and just leave everyone where they are which means that some people (not all, but some) are a bit ahead of the game. It's not fair, but then, that's life.

Well then I must not be understanding the purpose of giving a raid loot menu after 20 completions. Is it not to reward your effort for completing 20 raids? So now someone who has already completed exactly 20 raids pre-mod 5 is starting at zero, when the person who completed exactly 19 just needs one more. And yes, I agree with you that starting everyone at zero would have been the most fair, but they didn't do that. So without starting everyone at zero, isn't the next best thing to give retroactive credit? Unless I'm not understanding the purpose of the special raid loot quest reward menu.

[Theboz]

Well then I must not be understanding the purpose of giving a raid loot menu after 20 completions. Is it not to reward your effort for completing 20 raids? So now someone who has already completed exactly 20 raids pre-mod 5 is starting at zero, when the person who completed exactly 19 just needs one more. And yes, I agree with you that starting everyone at zero would have been the most fair, but they didn't do that. So without starting everyone at zero, isn't the next best thing to give retroactive credit? Unless I'm not understanding the purpose of the special raid loot quest reward menu.

lol, I find this funny. you are complaining that Turbine should be fair and reset everybody back to Zero completions.

Ok lets look at the difference.

You have 32 titan runs

You need 8 more for 40 completions to get a partial list of raid loot

You want them to reset it to completions 0

Then you would need 20 completion for raid loot list

A person who already had 20 titan runs would have needed 20 more runs anyways even if they reset it back to 0. Resetting the completion would not make a difference to a person who was on 20 or 0 or even 60.

A 0, 20 ,40 , 60 ,80 ARE ALL THE SAME NUMBER

And I think making it a retoactive would have been a bad idea, and probally would have caused problems.

[Lithic]

...snippy...

Unless I'm not understanding the purpose of the special raid loot quest reward menu.

The extra raid loot after 20 runs is a bonus to offset the lowered raid loot oportunities post mod 5.

Its like your boss says "ok starting today, I'm only paying you 10$ an hour instead of 15, but after 100 hours I'll give you a 400$ bonus."

Would you expect him to retroactively apply this to the 2000hours you worked the previous year at 15$ an hour? Of course not. Now if your boss says "since I'm a nice guy, I'll give you the bonus if you only work 160 more hours, and I'll give Hoolio (i like that name...hoooooolio) the bonus if he works 120more hours because he has more experience" would you then go crying to your boss about how unfair it was and that you both should get the bonus immediately?

Ok the above example might not work since I think most of us would tell the guy to go bleep himself and the horse he rode in on, take a week off and go find another job somewhere. But I think I made a point somewhere in there.

Those with less than 20 raids to go should just be happy they don't have to run 20 more times before they get the bonus, rather than crying that a lucky few have even fewer to do.

[MysticTheurge]

So without starting everyone at zero, isn't the next best thing to give retroactive credit?

No. A large part of the Raid Loot Change is to reduce the flooding of raid loot items into the game. Under the old system you could get as many as 2 raid loot items per person per run. Generally, it was less than that, but it was still often more than the 1 in 6 that we have now.

The free-item-on-20th-completion is now in there to offset the fact that you might run 20 raids and never even see a raid loot item. It's unlikely, but possible, and that makes people unhappy. (And granted you might've done 20 raids under the old system and never gotten a piece for yourself, too, but that's really beside the point.)

If, however, you gave retroactive credit, and gave 1 (or more) items from each raid to each person who'd ever done it 20 times or more under the old system (which was more rewarding than the new system) you'd oversaturate the game with Raid Items (even more than it is already). Which kind of defeats the purpose of changing the system in the first place.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

You ran it 32 times and you still need something from it? Good god man, give it up, that raid must hate you.

That aside, you are 8 away from your next autopull.... do you really want them to reset everyone to "0" (the only truely fair alternative)?

[RichD]

The reason (IMHO) they implemented it the way they did is purely one of easy implementation. Each character already has a counter for total completions of each quest. They consider this counter inviolate (i.e., they won't change/reset it's value or purpose).

The modulo math (e.g., every future multiple of 20 completions) works with no need for any other information to be tracked (i.e., no extra counter, and no new flags).

Resetting everyone to zero for the purposes of the new modulo math (e.g., everyone effectively starts at zero) would require either adding a new counter for tracking the number of completions since mod 5, or an offset (i.e., storing the current value of the counter and never changing it) so you can calculate the number of completions since mod 5.

Giving everyone who is already over 20 completions one (or multiple for 40/60/etc) choice at their next completion (or at login or whenever) would require adding a new flag indicating that you already got your selections earned before mod 5, or a counter indicating how many of your earned selections you have actually taken.

Adding another counter or flag to the character record is much more involved from a programming standpoint then just adding the line of code that is needed to do the modulo math at each completion.

True, it feels unfair that some folks benefit from their past runs more than others who have actually run the same raid more often. But given that the rationale for the "every 20 completions" feature is to somewhat offset the issues people have with frequency under the mod 5 raid loot system, any credit for pre-mod 5 raid runs is just icing on the cake.

Also, I would bet that the vast majority of players have NOT run the majority of the raids more than 20 times already. Reaver being a possible exception since you don't have to rekey, and the Dragon because it has been in game for so long.

[juniorpfactors]

well my cleric is at 20 reavers....now that is a cool feeling

[Naso24]

More annoying is getting there, and not having a tome to choose from the list. They are either not on the list, or have a much much smaller chance of being on the list than the other items.

[Knightrose]

Well, technically it wasn't hard work until now.

Plus it would also mean that every bad-*** who's been raiding since the Bi-centennial will instantly be rewarded with a piece of raid loot or a +3 Tome.

That's kind of vibe killer.

Run it.

Earn it.

Love it.

[Luthen]

i fell that the 20th completions not being retroactive is abad thing. i did the tian raid last night for my 32nd completion but didnt get the abbreivated loot list for end reward. sent help ticket in asking why? today miranda responded with they dont matter absically and to post here. if you have more than 20 completions and they dont matter why did you guys start the counters with all our completion numbers? if they dont matter why didnt you start everyones completions numbers at 0 when the mod went live? as the system works now you are rewarded if you did 15-18 raids more so than if you have been playing and putting time into game and have it done 21+ times.

I had a friend who had exactly 20 completions on one of his toons for a raid. How obnoxious is that? I have a toon with 21 on another raid. Similarly obnoxious.