C'mon CODOG... say or do something!

[Partymaker]

I so needed to rant about this that yeah, it deserves a new post just for it

RANGE COMBAT

IS

WORST

THAN

EVER!!

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And before I start my rant, I just want to say, CODOG, this isn't directed at you personnally (my frustration), the only reason I've put your name in the title is because you're the ONLY one at Turbine who dared to say anything on this, but it was 4 months ago... so I dared to think you'd have the gutts one more time to post on this issue, as no one else wants.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=14

But sadly, absolutely nothing happened since then and we never had any news on it either. So you're simply my personal "Obiwan-Kenobi", my last hope before I go nuts!

And CODOG don't ask me what race/class/weapons/feats, etc.. I'm using, this is COMPLETELY unnecessary. I've tried all range builds possible (so various feats), different races and no matter if I use bows or xbows or repeaters, the fact is, it sucks, all the time, on all races, no matter the class, no matter the level, no matter the feats, no matter the instance, no matter the quest, even no matter if it's rainy or not outside.... the issue is simply omnipresent!

With some luck, maybe Cathy from QA or even Silthe might answer something to all this... So here's the step by step to reproduce the bug

/sarcasm on

1. Create a dexterous toon
2. Buy a range weapon
3. Equip the weapon
4. Buy ammo
5. Equip ammo
6. Pick a quest
7. Enter the quest
8. Pick a mob
9. Fire a couple shots at the mob and you just CAN'T miss what's going on. You really can't miss it cuz it sucks so much that a 5 HPs kobold is gonna be in your face in one sec!!

And in 10 months, no one at Turbine have been able to reproduce that bug! lmao Slow down on the crack guys and get back to work!

Now, if you CAN'T fix it, here are the step by step to do:

1. Admit it once and for all!
2. Put it back to what it was pre-MOD3 before you all messed uselessly with the rate of fire and the reload animation!!! Cuz yeah, it was absolutely useless! Because we "supposedly" were stronger at low-lvls with a unique rate of fire that wasn't increasing as we lvl up (thus not too powerful at all for end-game purpose!), you changed it and now it's completely broken from lvl 1 to lvl 14. Nice fix...

But I probly "lost" all of Turbine in the first steps to reproduce the bug...

/sarcasm off
/rage on

Am I upset? YES! Range being my main attraction in this game, I'm wondering more than ever why the heck I'm losing my time/money with u Turbine. The way you're handling this issue is simply a shame for the whole gaming industry! You're simply stealing our money, selling us (range fans) a "dream" you're not even working on!!!

Like I said in another post about this, this game doesn't have a billion possibilities to offer, but only 3:

1. You play a caster
2. You play a melee
3. You play range

So your game is 33% broken since November 2006 and you don't even seem to care about it, worst, you really don't seem to be aware of this...

/rage off

Now I realize this is way too late to work on this for MOD5, obviously. So I'm gonna be patient a bit more, but if this isn't part of the release notes for the next update after MOD5 release, (which would make it a WHOLE year with crappy range combat), me and my 2 accounts are out of here and maybe I'll be back in 2050 to see if something has been done...

Now, before any stupid trolls wake up and bash the post, realize that:

1. I'm a founder (not on this account of course) so I freakin know what I'm talking about.
2. I like the game.
3. I really like the game!
4. Seriously, I HAVE to love the game to wait so stupidly for so long for a fix that don't even seems to be coming soon...
5. This isn't an useless rant about "I want red pants" or "I want to change my haircut", I'm talking about PERSISTANT BAD GAMEPLAY ISSUE here, not a personal fantasy I want to see in the game!

I just can't be the only one who is upset with the fact they haven't dealt with this issue asap. So if you are too, just bump the post til someome wake up at Turbine. But I'm sure the Cube is gonna wake up first anyway C'mon Cube, eat a DEV, get inside the coding and eat the bug!! EAT THE BUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

[MrCow]

1. Create a dexterous toon
2. Buy a range weapon
3. Equip the weapon
5. Buy ammo
6. Equip ammo
7. Pick a quest
8. Enter the quest
9. Pick a mob
10. Fire a couple shots at the mob and you just CAN'T miss what's going on. You really can't miss it cuz it sucks so much that a 5 HPs kobold is gonna be in your face in one sec!!

Dare I ask what step #4 is?

[Partymaker]

Doh lol

[Solstyse]

I am not eniterly sure I understand this rant. So you are compaling cause when you shoot a mob he runs at you full speed to defend himself? Is that right? If so, whew where to start : )
Generaly archer types don't do so well when soling they are a support member, some added DPS. Now if you were complaing about the dps of such archtype I would understand more, but your ranting cause the mobs is on you after a shot or 2 ( I can at least get you daggers thrown before I am attacked and that is without and special enchancments or feats for it )
I am new to game so not sure but isn't there some form of root? or hold? that you could cast on a mob then pick em off as you slowly back up. Or a snare, slow type spell you could use to kite a mob.
I was always under the impression that ranged combant was more of a supplement rather than the main course. But thats just my opinon.
Ok thats all I gotta say.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

I am not eniterly sure I understand this rant. So you are compaling cause when you shoot a mob he runs at you full speed to defend himself? Is that right? If so, whew where to start : )

Well, he didn't articulate what the actual problems are... But I'm guessing he's actually talking about the "missed" arrow shots. Extremely worse when using auto attack, so I just get to wear out my mouse click finger shooting arrows at things. Because from where I play at, between 1-2 shots out of five just don't do anything if I'm using auto attack... No attack roll, no damage, no nothing. And for me at least, I'll see these effects when I'm aiming at mobs that I can't miss on a 1. If I'm using the manual fire button, then maybe 1 in twenty shots doesn't show up. (If that many)
Generaly archer types don't do so well when soling they are a support member, some added DPS. Now if you were complaing about the dps of such archtype I would understand more, but your ranting cause the mobs is on you after a shot or 2 ( I can at least get you daggers thrown before I am attacked and that is without and special enchancments or feats for it )
I am new to game so not sure but isn't there some form of root? or hold? that you could cast on a mob then pick em off as you slowly back up. Or a snare, slow type spell you could use to kite a mob.
I was always under the impression that ranged combant was more of a supplement rather than the main course. But thats just my opinon.
And the reason for this is... Because of the many bugs and issues associated with ranged combat, combined with the general lack of dps.
Ok thats all I gotta say.

My thoughts in red....

I'm pretty sure that I know what the OP was trying to refer too, but I don't believe he expressed it very well. Here is the text of the link that he posted... Just so you can all be on the same page with your replies. I'd hate for someone to have to do an extra click on a link to be able to follow the conversation.

I certainly have noticed this. I'm currently working this issue which turns out to be a number of different issues. I will be rolling out some improvements over time so that we start seeing fewer and fewer of these "misses" that are not misses. Until we get all of the known issues straightened out, your continued patience is appreciated.

If you are "missing" more than 1 in 6 shots, it might be helpful to us if you could post some information. We know there are synchronization issues with repeating crossbows (in fixing the other sychronization issues these should be addressed as well), so please don't post builds with those particular setups.

Please post the following information:

Race/Gender
Classes
Specific bow/crossbow/thrown weapons
Specific feats that enhance ranged combat
Specific enhancements that affect ranged combat
All of your equipped gear
Whether or not you have haste items in particular I am interested in.

Thanks and best regards,

Codog

PS. Happy Memorial Day!

[Partymaker]

My thoughts in red....

I'm pretty sure that I know what the OP was trying to refer too, but I don't believe he expressed it very well. Here is the text of the link that he posted... Just so you can all be on the same page with your replies. I'd hate for someone to have to do an extra click on a link to be able to follow the conversation.

Tx for the precision mister

Not that I'm too lazy but I was writing this from the job and had to make it quick, so I didn't developed, well....the obvious

For the new player who posted before you, sorry, but if you never played range toon, you'll most certainly have no idea of what I'm talking about, no doubt. Ppl concerned about this knows way too well what I'm talking about tho No need to go over all of it again... the point of the post is to make Turbine realize they're really lazy and that this should have been fixed like 6 months ago! About time someone wake up in there, this is simply unacceptable...

[wundernewb]

IMO, from PnP, ranged weapons aren't nearly as useful indoors as outdoors. I can accept that, in a dungeon, fire off a couple arrows to weaken the mob, (although, with inflated mob HP, this isn't as effective in DDO) then switch to melee weapons to finish the job.

Outdoors, the real problem IMO is that, unlike PnP, you don't see the mob soon enough to take advantage of a ranged attack. Mobs generally show up at what I would consider Short range for most missile weapons.

This may not be fixable, as different machines at different settings have different draw distances, and it wouldn't be fair to have a player with a high-end machine able to range effectively outdoors, while a player with an average machine can't.

Since we have damage and HP out of line with PnP anyway, perhaps a solution would be to vastly increase missile damage. (without increasing ROF, or possibly even decreasing it)

[Rekker]

I don't think Cathy or CODOG work here anymore ???

[llevenbaxx]

Agree ranged combat feels just off, maybe not for the same reason. Fact is, in a close quarters underground dungeoun, you arent going to get more than one or two shots on a mob before they get to you. Best I can offer there is to be evaisive(ex. running and jumping around like a monkey on crack like I sometimes see).

Ive tried to level up a ranger, a thrown weapon rogue/ftr type and a repeater character. Quit all around 7-8. The mobs crazy movements(pathing?) when they are trying to flank or w/e they are trying to do, cause the projectile to miss. Im not rolling an attack for the 5' radius they were standing in a moment ago, Im rolling an attack on the mob. Ranged attacks should function more like magic missle, in the affect that when mobs are in motion, we should still get an attack roll. Any "dodge" bonuses a mob gets should be figured into there normal AC.

Above and beyond that I agree that ROF should be the same as melee attacks.

[lizardo666]

Yes I have played a ranger (deleted quickly) and a Repeater build F4 - Sorc1- Bard rest (deleted) and encountered the uselessness of it all (save for having some insanely modded bow)

The first issue, which is an issue in the transforming of PnP to DDO is ... simultanious initiative

PnP - u roll - u hit - nuff said (you act, they arent on their turn)

DDO - all actions at same time - u see an arrow flying for 4 seconds you move ...

DDO - no ability to use levitate, fly, climb, therefore you're never safe from being meleed one round after you provoke

There are some obvious fixes, but also create some issues as well ...

PnP you could tumble to a flank, manyshot : realtime: NO

[Solstyse]

Let me first off apologies for not gully understanding your plight when I responded. But what I took from your post wasn't quiet what you were complaining about.
With that said I have played a ranged fighter in other games ( Ranger EQ, various power based toons in CoH ) and EQ did it well Rangers were good at range, it took a few patches and expansion but they were good.
Now if what I gather now is that your auto attack doesn't hit as much as right clicking and targeting the mob, well it states that as soon as you start the game. I can't quote it cause I am at work and can't log in and make a new toon, but it says something to the extent " for a better chance to hit the target with a ranged weapons target the mob and keep your cursor on him" which makes total sense with the more active combat found in DDO. If you are upset that you can't just click auto attack and a few special abilities and be effect, in my opinion thats not what this game is about. I would hope auto attack wouldn't be as effective,if I wanted to auto attack something to death I would still be plaing EQ.
Now if its truly a problem with auto attack, and without, and your aiming and clicking and still missing like crazy, then that would be a problem, but from what I have read it just seems that when you auto attack a mob and don't keep your cursor on him you miss alot more, well yeah you should. If its the problem where you are actively targeting the mob, and still missing every other shot then you have a point and I support your plea.

Sorry for the original miss understanding.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Y'know, I just rolled a ranger....he's a freakin blast btw....and yeah, when you fight things like kobolds and hobgoblins, you miss.

But try to get your no-rolls when fighting slimes that ya miss on a 1.

You know whats happening? The mobs moving out the way....the mobs are stepping out of your line of fire, THATS where the bug is....if you have a mob targetted and he's moving yer gonna miss him....but its not showing a roll because its not anywhere near him.....Now, if it was implemented correctly, we would follow the mob and fire where we thought he was gonna be when my arrow was there....arent rangers supermen of the bow and arrow? We're supposed to be deadly, quick, nimble woodsmen....trained for years with the bow, hunted etc etc...we should know where the mob is going to be, not shoot behind him...

Thats where the problem is OP, not a borked range combat system with arrows disappearing, the mobs are moving.

Seriously, tell me how many phantom arrows you get while hitting slimes....zero.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Agree ranged combat feels just off, maybe not for the same reason. Fact is, in a close quarters underground dungeoun, you arent going to get more than one or two shots on a mob before they get to you. Best I can offer there is to be evaisive(ex. running and jumping around like a monkey on crack like I sometimes see).

Ive tried to level up a ranger, a thrown weapon rogue/ftr type and a repeater character. Quit both around 7-8. The mobs crazy movements(pathing?) when they are trying to flank or w/e they are trying to do, cause the projectile to miss. Im not rolling an attack for the 5' radius they were standing in a moment ago, Im rolling an attack on the mob. Ranged attacks should function more like magic missle, in the affect that when mobs are in motion, we should still get an attack roll. Any "dodge" bonuses a mob gets should be figured into there normal AC.

Above and beyond that I agree that ROF should be the same as melee attacks.

And there ya go, same thing Im seeing.

[EinarMal]

Y'know, I just rolled a ranger....he's a freakin blast btw....and yeah, when you fight things like kobolds and hobgoblins, you miss.

But try to get your no-rolls when fighting slimes that ya miss on a 1.

You know whats happening? The mobs moving out the way....the mobs are stepping out of your line of fire, THATS where the bug is....if you have a mob targetted and he's moving yer gonna miss him....but its not showing a roll because its not anywhere near him.....Now, if it was implemented correctly, we would follow the mob and fire where we thought he was gonna be when my arrow was there....arent rangers supermen of the bow and arrow? We're supposed to be deadly, quick, nimble woodsmen....trained for years with the bow, hunted etc etc...we should know where the mob is going to be, not shoot behind him...

Thats where the problem is OP, not a borked range combat system with arrows disappearing, the mobs are moving.

Seriously, tell me how many phantom arrows you get while hitting slimes....zero.

There are problems far beyond auto-attack. The rate of fire is so low that DPS gets way to far behind melee at the upper levels. Most rangers end up almost never using a bow in the upper levels and they get all the best bow feats for free. TWF is so much better than a bow 95% of the time is spent fighting with two weapons except for a few special quests/situations.

[Solstyse]

There are problems far beyond auto-attack. The rate of fire is so low that DPS gets way to far behind melee at the upper levels. Most rangers end up almost never using a bow in the upper levels and they get all the best bow feats for free. TWF is so much better than a bow 95% of the time is spent fighting with two weapons except for a few special quests/situations.

Well it might suck, but it is far from a problem and is very logical. I will make you a deal, you get a bow and arrow. I will get a baseball bat, and we will see who hits who faster and more. Better yet I will get 2 bats and give you a crossbow, I will stand 20 yards away and we will see who wins.
Its just logical, I would like to see more of a need for ranged attacks at certain times or more / better enchaments that make the DPS go up per shot go up or maybe MAYBE make you fire much faster.
But when it all boils down to it it makes sense, better off sitting back in a group firing and letting the fighters / barbarians do their melee thing.
/shrug

[EinarMal]

Well it might suck, but it is far from a problem and is very logical. I will make you a deal, you get a bow and arrow. I will get a baseball bat, and we will see who hits who faster and more. Better yet I will get 2 bats and give you a crossbow, I will stand 20 yards away and we will see who wins.
Its just logical, I would like to see more of a need for ranged attacks at certain times or more / better enchaments that make the DPS go up per shot go up or maybe MAYBE make you fire much faster.
But when it all boils down to it it makes sense, better off sitting back in a group firing and letting the fighters / barbarians do their melee thing.
/shrug

In PnP you can fire a bow the same number of times per round as you can attack with a sword. Not sure if this is logical but it is the rule.

As far as Rangers having to "stay back" a well built TWF Dwarf Ranger can hang with a fighter in terms of DPS any day.

And as far as real life examples etc... it really just depends. Attacks in DnD assume some feinting etc.. you aren't just swinging wildly. So you are over simplifying what the attack stands for.

If you really want to talk about logic I will take the bow and you can have the bat and we will start 50 feet apart and see how many swings you get in given that one arrow and you are not going to be running real quick if at all to swing that bat.

[llevenbaxx]

There are problems far beyond auto-attack. The rate of fire is so low that DPS gets way to far behind melee at the upper levels. Most rangers end up almost never using a bow in the upper levels and they get all the best bow feats for free. TWF is so much better than a bow 95% of the time is spent fighting with two weapons except for a few special quests/situations.

QFT.

In the round it would take the mob to get to a ranger(or any high level bow user) you should be able to plunk 3-4 arrows in them, manyshot not included. I got in on the subject a little late ill admit, what was the reasoning behind a ranged attacker not having the same attack rate as a melee?

[binnsr]

I don't think Cathy or CODOG work here anymore ???

Possibly true for Cathy_n QA (Last Activity: 07-23-2007 06:34 PM), but Codog was here earlier this week (Last Activity: 09-23-2007 11:35 PM)

[llevenbaxx]

In PnP you can fire a bow the same number of times per round as you can attack with a sword. Not sure if this is logical but it is the rule.

As far as Rangers having to "stay back" a well built TWF Dwarf Ranger can hang with a fighter in terms of DPS any day.

And as far as real life examples etc... it really just depends. Attacks in DnD assume some feinting etc.. you aren't just swinging wildly. So you are over simplifying what the attack stands for.

If you really want to talk about logic I will take the bow and you can have the bat and we will start 50 feet apart and see how many swings you get in given that one arrow and you are not going to be running real quick if at all to swing that bat.

We all are far from expert archers lol. Ill admit, give any goofball a bat and a bow and he will be able to swing faster. This has no weight in the argument. A ranger is a master with a bow, something 99.9% have NO experience with. Also melee is not just swinging a bat wildly at the air, there is supposedly bobbing and weaving involved. You know, looking for that openning to deliver the killing blow. DDO took it an MMO step further by speeding up melee combat, something I think they are/will start to regret as the attacks/round increase as the level cap increases.

From a balance standpoint a ranged combatant should be able to hang in there with regards to DPS, minus strength and weapon mods. It should be as viable as melee, he shouldnt have to revert to melee to hang in there damage wise.

EDIT- Not to mention the bow is a martial weapon requiring specialized training while a bat is little more than a glorified club, easily weilded in one or two hands.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

This is all true too...ranged attack rate should be faster...its nowhere near plain ole melee...

Seriously, rangers are an awesome class, Im having a ton of fun levelling my lil guy, but if ranged attack is borked then you're really making what? A rogue that cant open/disable locks/traps? A paladin without lay on hands? A fighter without the strength and armour?

Rangers need ranged attacks, its really what they should be about...its kinda in the name....

So basically two things need to be fixed at the moment. One being the rate-of-fire needs to be dramatically increased -shouldnt be too hard to fix, right?
And two being the mob targetting...if yer targetted on a mob, you should have an attack roll...no mobs moving out the way, hit or miss.