C'mon CODOG... say or do something!

[Riggs]

Thanks for replying Codog.

One of my first characters I leveled up way back when was ana archer build (ranger 2/ftr 8). he was amazing until level 8 or so. Shot on the run and lot of bow feats made for good killing. I never even thought about 'perching on hiding spots' which I only read about in places like the old Redwillow. Run and shoot, run and shoot.

Then monsters get harder. But you didnt shoot any faster. I was attacking at the same speed at level 10 as I was at level 2. Monsters got faster, and that +4 to hit ranged users in melee meant I would get hammered after maybe 2 arrows at most, so it was pointless to range anything that wasnt stationed on a ledge or otherwise unable to reach you. So I gave up on archery.

Over time, have noticed the various 'lost shot' problems on other characters since then, and there are various issues as raised by people here. However the biggest issue for me simply was the lower attacking speed, even with the changes that increased them a bit. I havent done a formal calculation, but it still seems at best to be half as fast as melee.

While increasing ranged firing to be as fast as melee would be unbalancing (and melee got a +1 attack at bab +1 anyway), unless ranged combat attack speed increases by up to maybe 50% more....pretty much anyone over the last year I have seen use a bow only slows quests down. Getting 2 attacks with a bow in the time a ranger could have gotten 7 attacks (using two weapons) is no comparison at all. Even the 4 swings a one handed or two handed user gets is too big a gap.

Unless someone has some seriously sick bows, and is really well built, ranged combat is not only a waste of time, but annoying to other players when someone is running around plinking away, and a fight takes three times as long as it should have because melee types are running around trying to catch the monster the ranged person cant kill. But really measuring effectiveness on the basis of whether or not you have a paralyzing bow say, is not really a valid comparison.

The demon queen is the exception, simply because overrun is such an overpowered ability that melee cannot stand and fight, get close, you fall down. So ranged works because it is easier.

All the issues raised are valid points, and hopes of a fix would be good. However since very few people I know used bows with any regularity (my ranger almost never uses them), the larger issue it seems is the slower attacking, and multishot has such a slow recharge timer that it is only useful for a few seconds, then thats it back to melee.

Have a good day

[Kerr]

My 14 Ranger doesn't rely on ranged attacks and generally prefers to go TWF. There are however excellent times to use ranged.

Twitchy mobs ... They won't sit still for some freaking reason. I get tired of chasing them since the feats providing attacks on the run doesn't seem to work all the time. So I stop, pull out a bow and start whittling them down.

Running across open zones .. Like in desert or giant or orchard, I pull out a paralyzer and do a little kiting with them. They usually get paralyzed before going far so don't have to worry about a train on us.

Mobs too dangerous to close to melee .. Those pain in the butt air elementals that throw you around. I just pull out a bow with greater elemental bane on it and stay away from them. I get tired of the thrown about the room thing when fighting them so stay out of their reach.

AOE spells damaging me ... If the bad guys drop a firewall or cloud kill or whatever, I back out of it and shoot at them. The mobs aren't smart enough to stay out of our AOE spells, but I'm smart enough to stay out of theirs.

Closing distance ... It's easy enough to get off a few good plinks when closing distances. Softens them up or paralyzes/banishes/disrupts them before you have to put any wear and tear on your equipment.

Protecting equipment ... Bows don't take wear and tear from firing them. Clanging a sword off a mobs' DR and armor does wear those down. Save's some money and prolongs equipment life to use a bit of ranged attacks.

I can't imagine any character exclusively using ranged combat for primary combat in this game however, for the reasons pointed out. It's just not efficient with DPS.

[EinarMal]

I can't imagine any character exclusively using ranged combat for primary combat in this game however, for the reasons pointed out. It's just not efficient with DPS.

This is the crux of it right here and is right on the money. One normally valid playstyle, using ranged combat as your primary means to kill things just isn't a good choice. Sure there are people who try but after level 8-10 have you ever seen a bow wielder with more than a handful of kills compared to a couple of powerful melee characters?

I can see ranged maybe being at 80-90% of melee damage output due to less risk, but currently it is mostly a waste of time. You can take 12 feats related to bows and still be outdamaged by someone with above average strength, power attack and a two handed weapon. That is seriously screwed up. Oh and you are not only outdamaged but it is not even close.

[Zenako]

This is the crux of it right here and is right on the money. One normally valid playstyle, using ranged combat as your primary means to kill things just isn't a good choice. Sure there are people who try but after level 8-10 have you ever seen a bow wielder with more than a handful of kills compared to a couple of powerful melee characters?

I can see ranged maybe being at 80-90% of melee damage output due to less risk, but currently it is mostly a waste of time. You can take 12 feats related to bows and still be outdamaged by someone with above average strength, power attack and a two handed weapon. That is seriously screwed up. Oh and you are not only outdamaged but it is not even close.

thru the lens of looking only at damage DEALT within a limited and short time span, 100% correct, but lets change the lens to look at things differently.

No time limit, and you are playing to avoid expending healing resources. Kill at range safely and maybe have to kite a little bit if something lives long enough vs a quicker kill but taking some damage. Damage that probably needs to be healed in some way. Then perhaps the damage dealt over damage taken ratio will look a LOT more favorable. I have yet to see a DPS fighter that did not need healing. mmm. 400 HP barbarian kills the mob but takes 40 points of damage each time. Barb is good for 10 mobs. 200 HP Ranger takes 2 or 3 times as long to kill each mob, but takes no damage since the mob never gets a chance to swing at them. Mmm, only limit is when you run out of ammunition. You could say (and many do) that the time it takes rogues to disarm traps is a waste of time (and many do say that).

Many players obviously do place a high premimum on their time in game, and feeling that their time needs to optimized to the nth degree. How many people are willing to sit around getting healed up with CLW wands (the cheapest form of healing around)? Most consider that a waste of time, but it a very cost effective method. Ranged attacking is "gimped" when placed under the same lens as DPS (with available and required healing) melee.

[Jaysensen]

thru the lens of looking only at damage DEALT within a limited and short time span, 100% correct, but lets change the lens to look at things differently.

No time limit, and you are playing to avoid expending healing resources. Kill at range safely and maybe have to kite a little bit if something lives long enough vs a quicker kill but taking some damage. Damage that probably needs to be healed in some way. Then perhaps the damage dealt over damage taken ratio will look a LOT more favorable. I have yet to see a DPS fighter that did not need healing. mmm. 400 HP barbarian kills the mob but takes 40 points of damage each time. Barb is good for 10 mobs. 200 HP Ranger takes 2 or 3 times as long to kill each mob, but takes no damage since the mob never gets a chance to swing at them. Mmm, only limit is when you run out of ammunition. You could say (and many do) that the time it takes rogues to disarm traps is a waste of time (and many do say that).

Many players obviously do place a high premimum on their time in game, and feeling that their time needs to optimized to the nth degree. How many people are willing to sit around getting healed up with CLW wands (the cheapest form of healing around)? Most consider that a waste of time, but it a very cost effective method. Ranged attacking is "gimped" when placed under the same lens as DPS (with available and required healing) melee.

Zenako, for the first time I dont totally disagree with your view on ranged combat. In fact, this is the post I most agree with.

You hit it on the head, there are different dimensions of efficiency to play along. Time, healing costs in wands/plat, # deaths etc etc.

The problem is that the hyperfast pace of DDO instances forces the time dimension to be most important for a majority of players. Casual and permadeath not even included in the discussion. IM not dismissing them as an important playerbase. Simply, most of the time, people get more enjoyment of completely wrecking monsters in a timely fashion, rather than kiting things around.


Back on topic, bows seem to follow different rules from Repeaters. Repeaters got a huge boost (apparently temporary) with the mod. The Mod didnt fix any bow issues. I have been crusading for boosts to archery forever now, and the bottom line is that it needs a boost. Any elite player will tell you that.

Archery needs improvement. I commend Codog for doing work on Repeaters, but I believe bows are subject to different issues.

[Riddikulus]

When we do, drinks will be on me in the Anvil Fire Inn on Argonesson. Unfortunately, it will be vials of blue liquid and cool yummy milk because of our teen rating.

Seems strange that while both DDO & LOTRO have identical Teen ratings, they can get totally trashed in Middle Earth and Stormreach is dry.

I think you need to take it up as a personal crusade to port the LOTRO drinks and effects over to DDO.

[KoboldKiller]

Very informative post. The DPS still needs to be raised. I know the "risk vs. attack" seems unbalanced compared to melee but why should the class be punished for being what it is? Also it seems to me the MOB rangers do way more damage than we are even close to. Also, as many others have posted we should be able to track them just like they track us with shots. I find it rediculous that a "bow expert" cannot lead a target that is moving. Again though BRAVO CODOG for your response.

[Invalid_86]

Can we get a response on having the number of bow attacks made in a round being tied to your BAB like they are supposed to? That is something that alot of us have been waiting for for a long time!

[Partymaker]

I find your comment above to be very interesting. I'm going to be looking over performance data for launch day, any patches that were applied, and see the relationship. I wonder if we fired up during an off peak time if we would see better performance. I'm glad that somebody other than me saw it working properly even if only for a moment. If it is related to peak concurrency, I have an inkling of what might be happening. Next time you see really bad performance, try firing manually without spamming the attack button. Wait for a brief moment after each reload and let's see what happens. I'm betting you won't see a miss that isn't related to monster movement or a asset placement issues. I'm going to get a friend to jump down into a tavern brawl and I can play with it during peak times. (that eliminates monster movement) I know you'd volunteer to shoot me if you could.

I volunteer Just send me a PM

I dunno what is considered off peak hours but I can confirm you I was playing at the same hours (1-5 am EST), the release day when everything was fine and the next days when I saw the problem coming back. If that can help in any ways...

--------------------

I kept reading most of the posts here and there's really something that strikes me about the "moving mobs". Haven't been able to read all of them tho so sorry if I'm coming back on something that has already been said.

Of course it might be part of a synchro problem and not really part of a gameplay issue but here we go... I'll let Codog be the judge

The thing is, when you shot a standing mob, you hit him kinda in the belly, in the center of the mob. So it happens frequently that I'm firing at a mob and suddenly I get the famous "ghost shots" as the mob starts to move... I can clearly see my shot going to hit him, but because he's moving, the bolt animation is gonna hit him let's say on the left side, but it's like I won't get a roll because I didn't hit him straigth in the middle of the mob animation. At least that's the feeling I have about it as I can clearly see my shot should hit him anyway.

I know you talked about manual aiming. I use it fairly enough like it is, imho, it would just be wrong if we're compell to play that way most of the time, like targetting would be useless for range combat. I mean.... Melee can target and swing their target, no? It's like if you were disabling the targetting option for all melees and telling them: "Sorry guys, just look at the mob in the eyes and do your best to take a swing at it, manually! Oh and... good luck!" It would be just boring to have to aim manually every play session

So don't you think, Codog, it might be a good idea to give us the same "ability" as the range mobs? We ARE suppose to be exceptionnals with range weapons/combat aren't we? It's just unfair that a freakin stupid Hobgoblin, or a brainless skeleton, can use a bow the way we should be able to, while we can't

Best exemple would be with a friend while we were duoing Orchard for Tapestry chests a few days ago. A few Skeletons archers spawned but we continue to run (and on haste!) as they don't move and keep firing at you but man... my Sorc friend almost got killed like 2 minutes later from 2 skeletons that were still firing from the Abyss (read, from so far it's just impossible!) while he was STILL on haste and they weren't missing a single shot at him, unless he was starting to jump... I want THAT too! I had to ran a full minute (almost 2 minutes, verified with my buffs that were still running) to go back where the mobs were to kill them, it's just nonsense from a standard PnP and/or even DDO point of view that they could still fire at him from sooooo far.

What I want isn't to be able to shoot anyone from a mile away tho But the fact they could shoot my friend from so far, while he was on haste AND never miss a shot... leads me to think that what we're (range users) asking for is already coded in the game!

When a target is jumping, it's really hard to guess how high & how far it's gonna jump and we rarely hit in these situations and I find this very realistic, especially in PvP (cuz mobs rarely jump..)

However, a target moving left or right isn't suppose at all to be THAT hard to aim at. We should be able to hit them straigth everytime if we get a successful hit with the dice roll. If would be a very nice and needed change that would improve range combat significantly.

What do you think about all this Codog?

[Codog]

I did a lot of testing and a lot of recording with the Havok debugger today/this evening. (and no I don't work the night shift)

Everybody claims the monsters are really good at predicting your movement. I created the firing squad test. I made one ranged turreted creature of almost every variety and lined them up, then a circle around me, and then hopped into a dungeon and placed them at good perch spots. I then stripped completely... no armor whatsoever. I then ran around like a fool trying to understand what on earth you are talking about.

One thing that still astounds me is the variety of play styles people employ. One of the more interesting aspects is how people choose to move in the game. Some weave from side to side... some circumstrafe the targets.. some run forward and backward. Some stand still. I found that by setting myself to 1 hitpoint, I could kill them all in a straight line by simply running side to side parallel to the line. I didn't once get hit. (afterall they are turretted and not stuffing a sword through my face) Running backward and forward perpendicular to the line of monsters (heading straight at them), I was murdered relatively quickly. Running forward and ducking and weaving, it took a while longer for them to get me. Standing still... I died a horribly quick death. In a robe, item wear tore my clothes off in seconds. (It was scandalous!) Running in a circle I rarely got hit. Monsters in a circle around me were most effective at pinning me down which was no big surprise. So I was satisfied by this test that playstyle has a lot of differing results. As for range, as long as you are in a monsters area of influence they'll shoot at you. You loose tab targetting with monsters at 60m. However, you can shoot farther than that untargetted.

Watching 20 kobolds running at me, I noticed some interesting things about their pathing and some of their attack animations. In running to their next nodes, often they will side step (akin to running forward and swerving). Since the autotargetting goes through the exact same pathway for players and monsters, ironically, you are using the same thing the monsters are. You'll notice when you fight a kobold standing still, they are jumping to the right and left and then swinging. When they are running, guess what... they are doing the same thing, but it isn't blending well or at all. I turned on physics recording and saw the monster jigjagging on the server. The client interpolates the movement smoothly enough that if the majority of the motion is backward, you don't really see it on the client so much. Kobolds, hobgoblins, and other 'early' monsters (as in the first ones prototyped and put in the game) exhibit this behavior most often. It is not a bit surprising to me now why some of us _always_ see it and others do not. How you move with relation to your targets really defines whether you are going to "physics hit" or not.

I'll talk a bit with our monster designer about this in the morning. Stationary monsters don't get phantoms nearly so often unless it is a content placement issue or the server is hitching really bad. So the good news is that we can try to make monsters select better attacks while moving that don't duck and weave so much and get hidden by client interpolation. I know there is code that already is supposed to be doing this. However, with our pathing rewrite I'm not sure at exactly what point a monster considers himself in range with you and pauses to do his left to right kobold two-step with you.

Another tidbit of information... if you are tight circle strafing your target and they get out of heading / off center by 45 degrees or more, your bow is shooting straight ahead if you are manually firing and you are getting an alert if autoattack is on "you must face blah blah". Sometimes autoattack can be tricked into firing straight. So if you're not keeping the mob in front of yourself, some of those misses are likely resulting from this as well. This is not unlike melee combat in that if you have Joe Kobold targetted but are facing away from him, you can swing your sword and hit his ugly brother that is facing your direction.

I have a few more parameters I want to tweak around to see if I can help with the perpendicular misses against monsters. However, it is bed time and I need sleep badly.

Best wishes out there,

Codog

[Bladedge]

A dev thats up this late and posting, now thats commitment.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

I just wanted to say this:

I have never been a fan of ranged combat. It isn't that is inefficient, it just never has appealed to me. Thus, this issue is irrelevant to me.

However I am astounded at the feedback and devotion that we have received from Codog. In my honest opinion this would be an example of TOO MUCH feedback, and what I mean by that is this: on a daily basis issues(some of which might actually matter to me) will be brought up and ignored by the devs that truly needed attention. I will admit that in the past few weeks that I have been impressed with what I thought was a huge issue(the bank losing items thread) was promptly and gracefully taken care of by Bunsen. So perhaps the issue(that of lack of involvement) has been identified and absolved. Perhaps this is a lark.

The main point that I have is this. Codog is on the inside of the game, without a doubt. If the game is "dying" as so many say(and I guiltily have too on occasion) would this guy have spent so much of his time trying to save it? I mean, come on people. Fixing ranged combat affects only probably 15 to 20% of the population.

Thank you very much Codog, and although I don't think that posts and effort this long should be the norm,(nothing else would get done) I VERY MUCH SO APPRECIATE YOUR DEVOTION TO OUR GAME. THANK YOU!

[gpk]

Codog if I may pick your brain, what of the issue of the ranged/thrown "buffered click" where you end up firing an extra shot after you think you've stopped?
There's also the more important issue of some party member having passed you at a certain angle and deflect shots backwards/upwards? This seems to affect ranged/thrown and projectile spells for us and mobs, it was funny in mod5 preraid to see mages shoot a lightning bolt towards the ceiling tonight.

Issue 2 is also compounded by issue 1, I've fired rotated and had "buffered fire" loose another projectile which gets deflected. More details on http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=123495

[MysticTheurge]

Everybody claims the monsters are really good at predicting your movement. I created the firing squad test. I made one ranged turreted creature of almost every variety and lined them up, then a circle around me, and then hopped into a dungeon and placed them at good perch spots. I then stripped completely... no armor whatsoever. I then ran around like a fool trying to understand what on earth you are talking about.

It has always been my experience that ranged attacks will predict your motion if you're moving so long as you don't change your motion.

That is. If I'm moving in a straight line (regardless of the direction, toward the monster or strafing it) the ranged attack will predict where I'm going to go. This generally means you can get ranged attacks to miss you by stuttering your movements (sometimes it's fun to try to "fling" kobold's shots way off to the side by doing a quick movement just as they're about to throw and then stopping).

It's also been my experience that player's targeted ranged attacks do not do this. Of particularly note in my memory was the part of Waterworks where you drop down to a room full of kobolds with ramps around the edges over water. Once you kill them, there's a switch to pull that opens a door with slimes behind it. I pulled out my crossbow and pulled the switch. The slime came out at me, basically moving across my screen over the ramp/ledge towards my location. Every single shot I fired missed as it was aimed directly at the spot where the slime was at the moment I fired, despite the fact that it was moving in a straight line at a steady speed.

Granted, much of my experience with these things is fairly old, so things may have changed. But I'll go test some stuff out in waterworks later and see if I can't grab a few videos.

[Raithe]

Because this thread has sparked some interest for me too, I took my ranger (demon hunter) into the Ruins of Threnal to do some archery testing.

1) I found that I never had any issues with ogres and giants, which I found to be both interesting and a rather marked improvement over previous game mods.

2) I did get several phantom arrows against the black wolves, which despite their zig-zagging behavior, were close enough that there was little chance of missing the mob cylinder (or whatever shape is used in the physics). When attacking untargetted, the area that can be hit to produce an attack roll normally seems fairly generous. I wonder if this tells us something.

3) A behavior of the new mod to de-target mobs under certain circumstances (or perhaps bugs) is quite annoying. I can understand losing a target because of distance. Losing one because you are facing a different direction for a while (or whatever is causing it) is not good gameplay at all, IMO.

[EinarMal]

thru the lens of looking only at damage DEALT within a limited and short time span, 100% correct, but lets change the lens to look at things differently.

No time limit, and you are playing to avoid expending healing resources. Kill at range safely and maybe have to kite a little bit if something lives long enough vs a quicker kill but taking some damage. Damage that probably needs to be healed in some way. Then perhaps the damage dealt over damage taken ratio will look a LOT more favorable. I have yet to see a DPS fighter that did not need healing. mmm. 400 HP barbarian kills the mob but takes 40 points of damage each time. Barb is good for 10 mobs. 200 HP Ranger takes 2 or 3 times as long to kill each mob, but takes no damage since the mob never gets a chance to swing at them. Mmm, only limit is when you run out of ammunition. You could say (and many do) that the time it takes rogues to disarm traps is a waste of time (and many do say that).

Many players obviously do place a high premimum on their time in game, and feeling that their time needs to optimized to the nth degree. How many people are willing to sit around getting healed up with CLW wands (the cheapest form of healing around)? Most consider that a waste of time, but it a very cost effective method. Ranged attacking is "gimped" when placed under the same lens as DPS (with available and required healing) melee.

My question is why should it be this way? Killing things at range is not unknown in the game through other means, ever seen a FOD specced sorcerer? The whole idea that a ranged character has to run around backwards for 10 seconds to kill something, when a melee character could have just killed them in 3 seconds just seems wrong to me.

You talk about risk/reward and limited resources but *most* players have pretty much unlimited resources to heal between fights. There really is no down side to melee in a game where most people can wand/scroll themselves to full health after every fight through the entire dungeon.

[moorewr]

Thanks for all the detail you've given us, Codog.

I am always impressed that AI, pathing etc work so well. The only frustrations I get are the occasional misplaced spell (wall of fire in particular) - and that seems to happen when the mobs and I are moving at angles to each other more than anything else. It has always seemed like the people who have a lot of trouble with ranged attacks are the twitch and strafe players . I respect but am unable to emulate them.

There's only one big thing about the AI that bugs me as unrealistic - drop an AoE on a mob, get them aggroed on a caster, and they always try to go toward the caster. If it's obvious there's a door in the way a non-sentient mob might keep raging, but an intelligent enemy ought to back out of the area of effect.

So - in the Maze of Madness the cats ought to keep slamming at the door, and the Minos out to back up or even go hit the door lever.

[Shankd_Dream]

what I don't get is why the combats are so stupid, aren't these guys supposed to have that "you're goin down attitude"? Why the does a kobold mage thats hittin for 70pts a pop run around you 900 times and you don't get like a free attack or anything.. do their ac's not drop when they move? Ranged combat isn't great any more because the guys always run in retarted directions so you never get any real shots off.

[moorewr]

what I don't get is why the combats are so stupid

Well, that's constructive.

[Riddikulus]

Well, that's constructive.

Way to quote out of context.

He has a good point in the rest of it.