C'mon CODOG... say or do something!

[MysticTheurge]

Thus the timer. Say 1 "round" is 2 seconds in DDO. Set the timer so that your first attack in a round is always at your full bonus. If you take a second attack in that time it's at -5, a third -10. So in 2 seconds you could take three attacks, or run in circles always trying to have a max to hit bonus by swinging once in a while effectively getting one attack every 2 seconds. There's really no reason why it couldn't be done- and it would solve alot of problems.

An iterative decreasing attack bonus simply doesn't work within the context of a real time game. It would cause far more problems than it would solve.

[gpk]

Thank You. And a slightly faster swing would be great if possible.

Yes there has to be a faster swing at the major BAB tiers, 5/10/15/20 to simulate the "extra attack". It need not be overpowering or balance-breaking, but there has to be be a noticeable boost in overall combat prowess here as this is the bread and butter for the primary combat classes.

[Invalid_86]

I understand that part but it dont address Aesop's post about just running around in a circle. Who cares if I get a few less attacks in if I can avoid taking damage. I just keep swinging away with your idear but I see no reason for me to stand still.

That's actually quite simple. Give an overall -4 to hit while moving unless you have Spring Attack.

So if you have 3 attacks with a +6 BAB you would have:

Standing still +6 +6 +1
Moving +2 +2 -3
Moving with Spring Attack +6 +6 +1

An iterative decreasing attack bonus simply doesn't work within the context of a real time game. It would cause far more problems than it would solve.

It seems that increasing the bonus is causing just as many problems.

[MysticTheurge]

It seems that increasing the bonus is causing just as many problems.

Yes. And it should also be done away with.

[HumanJHawkins]

Holy Cow... I don't get this whole discussion. This must be why my mathematically well built TWF is not as effective as some inferior non-TWF builds. Are you saying that my BAB 14 TWF doesn't get 3 dwarven axe and 2 hand axe attacks in the time it takes a BAB 1 rogue to swing a dagger? And this is by design?

Is it true that I only get maybe 3 attacks with +15 to the first or something to compensate? Because that is not a very good help when I was going to hit anyway. And it is completely useless when I am using a "only works on crit" weapon.

Someone who knows, please answer so I can tweak my build (or just abandon it in favor of a 2-handed build).

[Mad_Bombardier]

Holy Cow... I don't get this whole discussion. This must be why my mathematically well built TWF is not as effective as some inferior non-TWF builds. Are you saying that my BAB 14 TWF doesn't get 3 dwarven axe and 2 hand axe attacks in the time it takes a BAB 1 rogue to swing a dagger? And this is by design?

Is it true that I only get maybe 3 attacks with +15 to the first or something to compensate? Because that is not a very good help when I was going to hit anyway. And it is completely useless when I am using a "only works on crit" weapon.

Someone who knows, please answer so I can tweak my build (or just abandon it in favor of a 2-handed build).

HJH, currently your TWF gets 4 mainhand attacks and 3 offhand attacks, but the overall animation is slightly slower than single weapon, so the net increase is roughly +60% Rate of Attack (instead of a flat +75% for 3 extra attacks). In Mod6, GrTWF will grant offhand hook on first attack, too. Adding another 12.5% attacks in the same amount of time. So, mathematically, you will be seeing a boost to about +83% rate of attack with GrTWF over SWF (still with slower overall animation, instead of +100% RoA for 4 extra attacks). Not sure how SupTWF will add up as we don't know what the 5th attack is going to do to the animation times.

[EinarMal]

HJH, currently your TWF gets 4 mainhand attacks and 3 offhand attacks, but the overall animation is slightly slower than single weapon, so the net increase is roughly +60% Rate of Attack (instead of a flat +75% for 3 extra attacks). In Mod6, GrTWF will grant offhand hook on first attack, too. Adding another 12.5% attacks in the same amount of time. So, mathematically, you will be seeing a boost to about +83% rate of attack with GrTWF over SWF (still with slower overall animation, instead of +100% RoA for 4 extra attacks). Not sure how SupTWF will add up as we don't know what the 5th attack is going to do to the animation times.

I saw some mention of the animation time being fixed in Mod6 so that will hopefully go away as well.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I saw some mention of the animation time being fixed in Mod6 so that will hopefully go away as well.

That would be neat. But, not sure I ever saw that note. I know I've mentioned that the extra attack with GrTWF will largely (but not totally) fix the problem. At least we'll be at 175+% rate of attack like PnP.

[EinarMal]

Because 2H weapons still have a slightly slower animation on the 5th attack, we've added another glancing attack onto that attack to help compensate. We managed to fix the animations for the 5th attack on one handed, one handed with shield, and dual wield attack animations. This change will become affective in Module 6.

This seems to imply that the animations have been timed out to take the same amount of time to me....

[Mad_Bombardier]

This seems to imply that the animations have been timed out to take the same amount of time to me....

Cool, thanks! I got so wrapped up in 2 glancing blows, that I missed the animation time portion of that statement. Huzzah, Codog!

[HumanJHawkins]

your TWF gets 4 mainhand attacks and 3 offhand attacks<CUT>

Thanks for the explanation... I think I am just misunderstanding what all of that +15, +10, +5 talk is about. But don't bother trying to clarify that for me unless you really want to. As long as I get roughly the right number of attacks (including appropriate penalties for the extra ones), I am happy.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Thanks for the explanation... I think I am just misunderstanding what all of that +15, +10, +5 talk is about. But don't bother trying to clarify that for me unless you really want to. As long as I get roughly the right number of attacks (including appropriate penalties for the extra ones), I am happy.

To try and state things simply.

In Pen&Paper D&D, The Attack Chain Progression starts with your first attack at your highest To-Hit Bonus, and all subsequent Attacks in the Chain (or Round) at progressely lower and lower To-Hit Bonus. DDO Reverses the Attack Progression Bonuses, and "Tiers" them, as seen below:

Let's say you are a Fighter in PnP, and your To-Hit Bonus +15, and you get 5 attacks a round (I know this might not be the right numbers per PnP, but it will work for the demonstration here).

Pen & Paper: First Attack +15, Second Attack +10, Third Attack: +5, Fourth Attack: +0, Fifth Attack: -5
DDO: First Attack +0, Second Attack +0, Third Attack: +5, Fourth Attack: +10, Fifth Attack: +10

Or to write it out more simply:
PnP: +15/+10/+5/+0/-5
DDO: +0/+0/+5/+10/+10

NOTE: Yesterday it was originally posted that the 5th Attack would be at +15 in DDO... this was later reversed to +10.


The major difference is that DDO Rewards you for standing still and completing your attack Chain. PnP penalizes for multiple attack per round. But the primary difference is due to round-timing, and the ability to Move & Attack. PnP allows you to chose between (there are other choices, but for this discussion only 2):

PnP Allows:
1) Stand and perform my entire attack chain this round: +15/+10/+5/+0/-5
2) Move and perform one attack this round. +15

DDO Allows:
1) Stand Still and get the entire attack chain: +0/+0/+5/+10/+10
2) Move and attack: +0

The major difference revolves around the handling of Option #2. PnP allows a movement and a single attack at your HIGHEST attack bonus. While in DDO, if you move (without or without Spring Attack or Shot on the Run), you get single attacks at +0 bonus. This means that DDO REWARDS you for standing still and attacking, while, from a certain point of view, PnP rewards you for moving and attacking.... up until you factor in Attack of Opportunity (AoO), which DDO ignores.

But the long and short of it is that DDO severely penalizes us for Moving and Attacking, given that while moving, all attacks are at +0 To-Hit Bonus. This has a number of effects on the game.

1) Fighting in place, like Doors, or standing in the middle of a bunch of mobs, has rewards with higher to-hits later in the chain
2) Kiting and attacking, or circling and attacking is not an efficient way to kill mobs (in most cases)

Mostly, it hurts the Backstab melees, and the Finesse types, as they can't do the "Dance around the mob, stabbing and moving out of the way of their attacks" method of fighting, as all their attacks will be at +0, while the Barbarian who stands there and swings repeatedly, get the progressive attack bonuses.


Hopefully that all makes sense?
Dworkin

[Vorn]

Big D,
Isn't it for a 15th lvl fighter:
PnP: full round w/5' step: +15/+10/+5 or moving: +15

DDO: non-moving/tumbling spring attack: +15/+15/+20/+25/+25 or moving: +11 or +15 with spring attack

[Mad_Bombardier]

Big D,
Isn't it for a 15th lvl fighter:
PnP: full round w/5' step: +15/+10/+5/0/-5 or moving: +15

DDO: non-moving/tumbling spring attack: +15/+15/+20/+25/+25 or moving: +15

No 5th attack in PnP D&D. So, that one is at BAB+16 is: +16/+11/+6/+1. The list for DDO is correct and yes, both moving attacks are at full BAB+15 (with Spring Attack).

[Vorn]

Oops! No fourth or fifth attack in PnP and I forgot the spring attack for the +15 (or a -4 for moving)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm

[daydrmrzzz]

I was curious how the devs are going to have the extra attack from rapid shot fit into he attack progression. If they have it add an extra attack at the lowest AB, it will actually hurt those with the feat. Here are some numbers for 4 different versions of rapid shot compared to not having rapid shot. I made the following assumptions to make the comparison: 600 arrows fired at a mob with an AC high enough that at AB +0 or -2, only a 20 hits, at +3 an 18 hits, at +5 a 16 hits, at +8 a 13 hits, and at +10 an 11 hits. Here are the results at BAB +5/+10/+15 (at BAB <5 there is no difference between any of the options or the current implementation).

NO RAPID SHOT (+0/+0/+5/+10/+10)
BAB 5: 70 hits out of 600 shots
BAB 10: 128 hits out of 600 shots
BAB 15: 162 hits out of 600 shots

PnP implementation (1 extra shot at highest bonus, all at -2 to hit, -2/-2/+3/+8/+8/+8)
BAB 5: 60 hits out of 600 shots
BAB 10: 132 hits out of 600 shots
BAB 15: 145 hits out of 600 shots

Extra attack at lowest AB (+0/+0/+0/+5/+10/+10)
BAB 5: 60 hits out of 600 shots
BAB 10: 108 hits out of 600 shots
BAB 15: 140 hits out of 600 shots

Extra attack at highest AB (+0/+0/+5/+10/+10/+10)
BAB 5: 90 hits out of 600 shots
BAB 10: 162 hits out of 600 shots
BAB 15: 185 hits out of 600 shots

Extra attack at highest AB, capped at +5 (+0/+0/+5/+5/+10/+10)
BAB 5: 90 hits out of 600 shots
BAB 10: 132 hits out of 600 shots
BAB 15: 160 hits out of 600 shots

Also, adding the extra attack at +0 BAB is the worst option for all cases (unless BAB <5), even worse than not having rapid shot at all!. Also, assume a mob is charging you, and you need the extra AB to have a chance of hitting it. If the extra attack from rapid shot is at +0 AB, you would need to waste 3 shots at AB +0 before you get a bonus, whereas someone without rapid shot only has to waste 2 shots before getting a bonus. PLEASE DON'T IMPLEMENT THE EXTRA ATTACK AT +0 AB!.

[Kerr]

Yes. And it should also be done away with.

Now you've lost me.

You said an interative decreasing BAB would cause more problems than it solves.

Now you've said the interative increasing BAB should be done away with.

So what then? Have one BAB, get rid of the attack sequences with +/- and the attack sequence with difference swings is just visually different, with no change to BAB for that swing?

[MysticTheurge]

So what then? Have one BAB, get rid of the attack sequences with +/- and the attack sequence with difference swings is just visually different, with no change to BAB for that swing?

Essentially, yes. I think the best solution is to have neither an increasing nor decreasing attack bonus, but simply a faster rate of attack while standing still. Though actually, I've since been reminded (by this thread) how the decreasing attack bonus and AC play well together, especially at higher levels. I'm not sure there's a way to really implement a decreasing bonus attack chain for PCs without screwing up too much other stuff. You could, theoretically, give enemies a decreasing attack progression and give PCs a flat attack progression with increases in swing speed to provide incentive to stand still.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I was curious how the devs are going to have the extra attack from rapid shot fit into he attack progression.

Rapid Shot in DDO just gives a flat % rate of fire increase. No need to worry about extra attacks in the chain, as you get the whole chain faster and start a new chain.

[QuantumFX]

Essentially, yes. I think the best solution is to have neither an increasing nor decreasing attack bonus, but simply a faster rate of attack while standing still. Though actually, I've since been reminded (by this thread) how the decreasing attack bonus and AC play well together, especially at higher levels. I'm not sure there's a way to really implement a decreasing bonus attack chain for PCs without screwing up too much other stuff. You could, theoretically, give enemies a decreasing attack progression and give PCs a flat attack progression with increases in swing speed to provide incentive to stand still.

There would have to be a lot of mob AC rebalancing but I think DDO is going to have to go with a more P&P model to avoid the future issues you've brought up earlier. It's easier to balance around a full BAB character's 2nd or 3rd attack than a current model's 4th attack.

Back when DDO had the fast attack bug I had an idea to make it not worth the effort, keep DDO's OCD'elicious right mouse click fest flavor and make the attack progression work correctly. It definately needs some constructive feedback though. The idea is to give the click happy player his rush but make sure the attacks don't connect as often.

Some variables need to be established:
- How long is a round in DDO. (Seems to be 2 seconds)
- How many attacks do you want a full bab character to perform at lvl 20 (Where number of attacks stops in P&P.) (Seems to be 5 for Sword n Board and THF, 9-10 for TWF {Should apply to double weapons too if implemented})

Step 1 - Make all your "standing" animations do the correct number of attacks in the time it takes to complete a round.
Step 2 - Make a countdown timer that kicks off when you right mouse click or hit a special attack key. The timer will last the exact amount of time allocated for a "round".
Step 3 - Make the first attack at full BAB with each additional attack roll getting a cumulative -5 added to the roll. (i.e. BaB, BaB -5, BaB -10, BaB -15, etc.)

Exception #1: Two Weapon Fighting will automatically alternate between main and off hand attack. The feats will slow the BaB penalties.

Examples: (not including penalties for weapons)
No TWF feats (Main 1: BAB, Offhand 1:BAB-5, Main 2: BAB-10, Offhand 2: BAB-15, Main 3: BAB-20, Offhand 3: BAB-25, Main 4: BAB-30, Offhand 4: BAB-35, Main 5: BAB-40, Offhand 5: BAB-45)
With TWF feat (Main 1: BAB, Offhand 1:BAB, Main 2: BAB-5, Offhand 2: BAB-10, Main 3: BAB-15, Offhand 3: BAB-20, Main 4: BAB-25, Offhand 4: BAB-30, Main 5: BAB-35, Offhand 5: BAB-40)
With ITWF feat (Main 1: BAB, Offhand 1:BAB, Main 2: BAB-5, Offhand 2: BAB-5, Main 3: BAB-10, Offhand 3: BAB-15, Main 4: BAB-20, Offhand 4: BAB-25, Main 5: BAB-30, Offhand 5: BAB-35)
With GTWF feat (Main 1: BAB, Offhand 1:BAB, Main 2: BAB-5, Offhand 2: BAB-5, Main 3: BAB-10, Offhand 3: BAB-10, Main 4: BAB-15, Offhand 4: BAB-20, Main 5: BAB-25, Offhand 5: BAB-30)
With STWF feat (Main 1: BAB, Offhand 1:BAB, Main 2: BAB-5, Offhand 2: BAB-5, Main 3: BAB-10, Offhand 3: BAB-20, Main 4: BAB-15, Offhand 4: BAB-15, Main 5: BAB-20, Offhand 5: BAB-25)

Exception #2: Rapid Shot - Yes, it would have to be changed to a toggleable feat. When active it will give a -2 to hit for all shots but bump the degredation of BAB in a manner similar to TWF.

(ex. Feat active and including feat penalty: Shot 1: BAB-2, Shot 2: BAB-2, Shot #3: BAB-7, Shot #4: BAB-12, Shot #5: BAB-17)