C'mon CODOG... say or do something!

[GlassCannon]

I have personally been in a party of a lvl 3, 4 lvl 4's and a lvl 5, ALL RANGERS in Stormcleave on Hard.

We completely destroyed it.

1) Wide open spaces
2) MOD 3, so the giants didn't travel at half the speed of light
3) We were all twinked to the hilt
4) Pious Grew'el still only spawned just a few skeletons, instead of a legion
5) We all had wands and universally healed each other's HP bars
6) With different people constantly blossoming out and confusing monsters by dealing different sets of damage, we avoided using a lot of wands, and our Resistances really helped at Xanti'lar.
7) We were all veterans of the quest. << #1 reason.

If you take the same party into Delera's... disaster.
1) Skeletons are immune to pierce damage at those levels

Immunity to the primary form of damage kind of destroys the party's effectiveness. A party full of Rogues would hurt even more in Delera's, as the skeletons are immune to most of the DPS they punch out, and the Rogue doesn't have a very high HP set to absorb all those undead archers' barrages. Phasing Wraiths and Specters are a real nightmare(WE HATE THEM SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and more !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and some too for good measure), and they provide a nearly unkillable target, unless you happen to know someone who can drop a constant AOE like Fire Wall or Acid Fog(NOT happening in an all ranger party... and no I don't mean gimps, I mean pure classes).

For you TWF fanatics: No, the rangers in question do not own any melee weapons, and in this case, they would not come to own any.

[liamfrancais]

Default any pally love for new mod?
just a quick question for the devs...will there be any thing new implemented for paladins in the new mod..just wondering if any continuation for the faith lines will be implemented or a new specialized line possibly? maybe new spells? anything at all?

[Keramos]

Just finished reading through this thread. Codog, gotta add my voice to everyone else's - top job.

One of the things I noticed was an early description of missile fire by Codog, basically along the lines of (if I interpreted it correctly):

1. Build up an arrow/bolt object.
2. Arrow/bolt object moves through the gameworld at x metres/second from current character position to current target position as part of the physics engine.
3. When arrow/bolt object hits something, damage and effects are applied if it's appropriate (e.g. creature & not a wall) and the arrow/bolt object is torn down.

The comment by Codog was that the build up/tear down of objects was resource intensive, and thus a limiting factor on

• Attacks per second for ranged
• Percent of time Manyshot was on (each arrow = an object, IIRC), and thus
• Max arrows per attack in manyshot.[/INDENT]

So therefore would it be practical to do player missiles without objects?
If it is possible to do line-of-sight checks without moving an object through the gameworld to see if it hits something, then perhaps it might go, on the simplest level, something like:

1. Missile attack triggered
2. LOS check between player and target
3. if LOS is OK, make to-hit roll, if not, put an arrow in the wall or whatever was hit.

This is in some ways equivalent to an infinite muzzle speed, and would also fix some of the problems a faster muzzle speed fixes (say, moving monsters).

To simulate flight time, and allow monsters to do actions in that time, perhaps rather than immediately rolling to hit, a timed effect is applied to the monster (presumably similar to a timed spell or poison effect) with the to-hit and resulting damage and other effects being applied when the timer runs out. This timer could be set to calculate distance divided by muzzle speed to give the delay time, or, depending on the length of a 'tick' (if used) could be simplified, being set to instantaneous for distances up to x, 1 tick for distances up to y, 2 ticks for distances up to z, etc.

To allow monsters to move into cover between when the missile is launched and the to-hit roll occurs, you could do a second LOS calc back from the monster to the position the missile launched from. Lack of LOS means no to-hit roll (and maybe a 'you missed' or 'kobold dodges' message to show you did actually shoot). Actually, if you could do this, you might not need the first LOS - oh, except to determine a target in non-targeted mode.

A side-effect of this would presumably be no visible player arrows - I assume the arrow object is what you see shooting off. I think most players wouldn't have any real issue with "invisible" arrows. Not a problem for the monsters, either, as they don't actually 'see' the object. I assume they detect objects moving into their awareness radius or some-such, so missed shots could either generate a (much reduced, 'dumb') arrow object or some other trigger to their awareness. Maybe an arrow trail effect tied to the player avatar of a meter or three in length could be used. No-one's going to complain too much of an arrow seeming to shoot through a point-blank monster. Seeming to shoot through a wall, perhaps, would be pushing it.

Personally I'd keep the existing system for monsters (seems to work ok for them :-) and use the new for players only. Of course it probably doubles the missile code, making life a pain for the maintainers.

If non-physics LOS is not feasible, maybe (at least for the simpler scenarios above) a 'targeting' object, created when the bow is wielded, that shoots along the arrow path at ludicrous speed to determine LOS could be used.

Come to think of it, maybe you could create an arrow (or bolt) shaped single object at wield time, load it with effects when the ammo changes, and use it pretty much as per now, just returning it to the bow when done. Cut down on creating/destroying arrow objects every shot to a single create and load (bow effects) once per wield, destruct once per unwield, and load ammo effects only on ammo change.

If some of the above actually bears any semblance to DDO backend reality and is feasible, perhaps it could potentially fix the attack speed issues and moving targets issues (from player point of view) and perhaps resource issues (from the coders').

Codog? Am I totally barking up the wrong (code) tree?

[tihocan]

Hey Codog, got another quick combat question for you. A while ago a dev (DeadlyGazebo) said the Two-Handed Fighting line of feats had no effect on quarterstaves (see this post for the quote), but at least two reliable forum posters have confirmed that it is not true (for instance you get glancing blows on your 4th swing with Greater Two-Handed Fighting). Would it be possible to get an updated official statement as whether these feats work (entirely or partially) for quarterstaves?
Thank you

[Kire]

any word form codog lately? i havent seen him in this thread for a day or two i think.

~Kire

[MysticTheurge]

any word form codog lately? i havent seen him in this thread for a day or two i think.

You'll generally have more luck getting him between 10 pm and 2 am eastern time.

[Kire]

You'll generally have more luck getting him between 10 pm and 2 am eastern time.

Lol i wasnt interested in taggin him right now i just wonder waht he;s doing since he hasnt been posting.

[QuantumFX]

any word form codog lately? i havent seen him in this thread for a day or two i think.

~Kire

I believe that would be my fault... I think the TWF thing made his head explode.

[Dark_Helmet]

Adjusting combat speeds is somewhat of a delicate topic.

You kill 1 HD woodland creatures?! When I was a kid I was a bow fanatic and I understand your point. Very true to Napolean Dynamite, I used to dress up like a ninja and shoot bales of hay in my pasture. I rarely respond to real life example posts because real life examples aren't super relevant. Gladly, our game isn't a simulation of real life. In real life, most of us would drown trying to swim in plate mail. In real life, nobody jump nearly as high as we do in the game. In real life, we couldn't carry 1000 arrows in our backpack. *chuckle* In real life there are no goblins and dragons. The list goes on and on.

I believe your basic desire is that missile combat for upper end rangers and ranged specified fighters needs to 'have more teeth'. A lot of people have expressed that they want to feel heroic going into battle with their bow. The current implementation leaves you backpedalling and kiting the monsters which doesn't feel heroic. Eladrin and I have been having lots of conversation about this and are working up a plan to help address this some. You will be seeing some changes in module 6 for ranged combat. Some changes will need to be rolled out over time.

Best wishes,

Codog

I have used a real compound bow that can take down a large bear... and I have carried around 5 score arrows (being the greenie that had to carry supplies for the troup). But, I recall that we didn't lose that many arrows - which flies in the face of "every arrow is lost".

Rate of fire is lower, but damage is deadlier. What we really need are more neat effects on bows that relate to aiming / firing or massive damage (slaying arrows seem to almost emulate that).

While rate of fire should not be increased, I think you do need to make the recovery much faster from the standpoint of "I fired now I am stuck helplessly while the monster swings several times". The game lags behind since we see the animation after the monsters are making their full moves. I really think you all should test from the minimum spec machine across a 256K DSL line to see where the complaints are coming from.

..but I digress:

I think the problem is that people consider bows like guns - rapid fire. they have to realize a bow has no where near the same rate of fire. Shooting on the run is already "heroic".... ever play tag on the run with blunt darts (yeah we had eye wear but shots in the nuts put you down for the count )


In the end, this is a round based game converted to real-time, so there is no way we can do the interrupts, etc. I feel your pain in trying to program it and I salute your communications with the peasants!

[Kire]

I have used a real compound bow that can take down a large bear... and I have carried around 5 score arrows (being the greenie that had to carry supplies for the troup). But, I recall that we didn't lose that many arrows - which flies in the face of "every arrow is lost".

Rate of fire is lower, but damage is deadlier. What we really need are more neat effects on bows that relate to aiming / firing or massive damage (slaying arrows seem to almost emulate that).

While rate of fire should not be increased, I think you do need to make the recovery much faster from the standpoint of "I fired now I am stuck helplessly while the monster swings several times". The game lags behind since we see the animation after the monsters are making their full moves. I really think you all should test from the minimum spec machine across a 256K DSL line to see where the complaints are coming from.

..but I digress:

I think the problem is that people consider bows like guns - rapid fire. they have to realize a bow has no where near the same rate of fire. Shooting on the run is already "heroic".... ever play tag on the run with blunt darts (yeah we had eye wear but shots in the nuts put you down for the count )


In the end, this is a round based game converted to real-time, so there is no way we can do the interrupts, etc. I feel your pain in trying to program it and I salute your communications with the peasants!

I agree with everythign you say. hmm say somjethign contrversial. quick!

~Kire

[Josh]

Is there any mention of the ballistics in this game being out of wack? I mean specifically how stupid skelleton archers can hit you with arrows over by the desert entrance? Why do our projectiles take straight paths, while theirs have some sort of ballistics applied to them?

Ballistics in and of itself is not that hard, really. It's taught in 1st semester physics in college.

[Kire]

Is there any mention of the ballistics in this game being out of wack? I mean specifically how stupid skelleton archers can hit you with arrows over by the desert entrance? Why do our projectiles take straight paths, while theirs have some sort of ballistics applied to them?

Ballistics in and of itself is not that hard, really. It's taught in 1st semester physics in college.

Well we may see this when AI is devoleped more. cuz if that was teh case then they would just have a ranger get teh agro then hind behind a wall while the mob stands on teh other side trying to run through the wall.

~Kire

[daydrmrzzz]

The biggest problem I have with bow and crossbow animations is the shoot first and load after problem. When you hit the fire button, you should draw the bow and shoot. Instead, you shoot and then draw the bow. if you want to change to a melee weapon right after firing, why would you load another arrow before putting your bow away? Reversing the animation sequence would help speed up swapping out weapons, which is the biggest gripe I have. If this isn't feasible, make switching weapons interrupt the animation!

As far as improving damage from bows, how about a ranger line of enhancements (Skirmish shot) based on the Scout class. Available every 3 levels, gives another d6 damage/level of enhancement to each shot as long as the following conditions are met: 1) you are moving when you shoot (you take -4 to hit withiout SOTR) and the target must be withhin 30' (like other precision based attacks). It stacks with a rogues sneak attack ability if the attack also qualifies as a sneak attack. This will make a kiting ranger very deadly, but won't encourage perching, nor will it help with long range sniping (which could have another line of enhancements).

The Sniper shot line of enhancements (available every 3 lvls, starting at 4th lvl) adds 1d6/level of enhancement as long as the following conditions are met: You must be sneaking, you must be stationary when shooting, the target must not be aware of you, you must be more than 30' away.

Additional ammo types costing as much as magic ammo: Poisoned ammo. arrows/bolts etc with spider poison (Str damage), scorpion poison (Con damage), Bee venom (Dex damage), Wasp venom (Paralysis), Alchemist's fire ammo, acid ammo, Tangle foot bags (thrown weapon with a STR based hold person effect), Thunderstones (thrown weapon which deafens opponent effectively putting a short term curse on them) and flash or smoke bombs than blind apponents, giving you cover.

These changes would give added flexibility to ranged weapon users, and make them more viable and enjoyable to play.

[Josh]

Well we may see this when AI is devoleped more. cuz if that was teh case then they would just have a ranger get teh agro then hind behind a wall while the mob stands on teh other side trying to run through the wall.

~Kire

I am assuming that you mean shooting arrows from behind cover? Behind partial cover is perfectly fine, as long as it's not TOTAL cover. Unless you have multiphasic arrows how are you going to shoot through the walls?

I would just like to see some consistency across the board. It's ridiculous that NPC's have a better trajectory model thatn PC's, don't you agree?

[Kire]

I am assuming that you mean shooting arrows from behind cover? Behind partial cover is perfectly fine, as long as it's not TOTAL cover. Unless you have multiphasic arrows how are you going to shoot through the walls?

I would just like to see some consistency across the board. It's ridiculous that NPC's have a better trajectory model thatn PC's, don't you agree?

I am talking about OVER walls =). i dont think AI is smart enough to go around walls yet. not from whawt ive seen anyway. so if we could arch our shots ppl would just set dangerous mobs up on one side of the wall and drop a firewall on them before going to the other side where the ranger could continually shoot the mob. see?

~Kire

[Dark_Helmet]

Is there any mention of the ballistics in this game being out of wack? I mean specifically how stupid skelleton archers can hit you with arrows over by the desert entrance? Why do our projectiles take straight paths, while theirs have some sort of ballistics applied to them?

Ballistics in and of itself is not that hard, really. It's taught in 1st semester physics in college.

They are not using bows, they are using LAWN DARTS (which was outlawed in the US due to killing and maming young kids with indrect fire tossed at a ring on the ground).

Skeletons can't see, so they don't have an LOS problem; they don't have brains, so they don't have a reality check; They aren't human (computer controlled), so they don't miss!


Seriously,
Indirect fire is very hard to do and only really works against true mobs (groups of creatures) or stationary objects.

[Sibyl]

I believe your basic desire is that missile combat for upper end rangers and ranged specified fighters needs to 'have more teeth'. A lot of people have expressed that they want to feel heroic going into battle with their bow. The current implementation leaves you backpedalling and kiting the monsters which doesn't feel heroic.

I'm trying to imagine Legolas running backwards from an invading army at Helm's Deep, kiting around frantically shooting 30 arrows to drop one enemy, and missing every other shot while going "Aaahhhhh! Help! I have aggro!"

It would be cool to be a bit more heroic than that!

Legolas (in the books) got to stand on top of tall places and shoot down at monsters who couldn't path to him, and he could usually take them out in one shot. Granted, every place in the game where monsters can't path to the player is considered an "exploit" that eventually gets fixed, so you'll have to compensate for that.

[jeffrodriguez]

SO does rapid reload now works on Heavy Repeating Xbows or is it still broken

[Mad_Bombardier]

SO does rapid reload now works on Heavy Repeating Xbows or is it still broken

Not yet. Maybe in the next update.

[Borror0]

Not yet. Maybe in the next update.

Pulls strings on 'Speak and Say'

• NEW - Rapid reload now affects repeating crossbows.