Rogue Suggestion on Way of the Assassin

[Aspenor]

Currently this enhancement is nigh-worthless, especially for all the costs associated with expenditures of AP.

I propose that the Way of the Assassin enhancement work more like certain Assassin prestige class abilities, without adopting the entirety of the class features. While activated, the Way of the Assassin boost could add the character's intelligence modifier to base damage, paralyze the opponent on a critical hit, and on a confirmed critical on a natural 20 cause outright death (just like a vorpal, but with any weapon). These things would take place only during the time the boost is activated.

Currently there are very few benefits to this enhancement line, and I'd like to see it made more viable.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I don't know that I'd go quite as powerful as Asp suggests but I agree its desperately needs work. I'd probably drop the vorpal effect suggested and instead have poison work correctly as per D&D poison application rules (ie - assume that me clicking the button means I justed applied a poison of my choice to the blade)

[Aspenor]

I don't know that I'd go quite as powerful as Asp suggests but I agree its desperately needs work. I'd probably drop the vorpal effect suggested and instead have poison work correctly as per D&D poison application rules (ie - assume that me clicking the button means I justed applied a poison of my choice to the blade)

I wouldn't view these changes as overpowered. Take into account the killing power of a rogue in PnP vs. DDO. Due to the arbitrarily tacked on HP, rogue sneak attack damage is comparatively negligible. This ability would give rogues an option for killing.

I would propose that an additional caveat be put on the natural 20 + confirm = death attack. The rogue would need to have his boost activated, and ALSO be currently undetected by the monster in question, meaning, he must be qualifying for a sneak attack in order to get the instant-kill.

[Turial]

Now is that paralysis like hold person, such that they are helpless and auto-crit, or like the weapon affect which holds the target in place (most of the time)?

I'm all for changes like those you have highlighted. Just need clarification on this one.

[Aspenor]

Now is that paralysis like hold person, such that they are helpless and auto-crit, or like the weapon affect which holds the target in place (most of the time)?

I'm all for changes like those you have highlighted. Just need clarification on this one.

I imagine I'd say the paralysis would render them flat-footed, but not necessarily helpless to the point of auto-crit. So it would work similar to the spell Holy Smite used to work. The rogue would get backstabs, but not auto-crits. It would also eliminate dexterity bonuses to AC for the creature.

At least that's how I propose it would work.

[Riggs]

The old 2nd edition assassin was built around a one shot kill.

As long as you were undetected, based on your level you had a % chance to instant kill something when you attacked.

Way of the assassin should be much the same as above, boost, get a sneak attack, have a chance to one shot something.

Getting sneak damage is nice, but when monsters have 100's of hit points, even 7d6 damage wont even come close on a single attack to killing something.

[Aspenor]

The old 2nd edition assassin was built around a one shot kill.

Even the 3.5 version of assassin is built around the one-shot kill. It is contingent upon being undetected (in DDO, qualifying for sneak attack) as well as on the assassin taking a certain number of rounds to study his enemy and his weak points. Technically, the assassin may choose whether his death attack causes paralysis or death. However, everybody in DDO would choose death, thus I proposed the paralysis on crit and death on nat 20 + confirm.

This would of course only happen during the time the action boost is activated.

[ahpook]

I would agree with this. With the boosted up numbers on everything, the rogue sneak attack for 30ish points of damage is underpowered. With wizards FODing at will and Barbs critting for hundreds of points would it be overpowered for Rogues to have some kind instakill? I don't think so and like your idea.

[DSL]

I would agree with this. With the boosted up numbers on everything, the rogue sneak attack for 30ish points of damage is underpowered. With wizards FODing at will and Barbs critting for hundreds of points would it be overpowered for Rogues to have some kind instakill? I don't think so and like your idea.

Mostly true, but a little oversimplified. Rogues can still pump out lots of melee damage, but it is lower than it should be in relative terms. The +8 to dmg DDO rogues can get over their PnP counterparts certainly doesn't compare to the advantages babarians' can get in DDO, nor even to the exaggerated Str scores of DDO fighters over their PnP equivalents. In PnP, the one tactical rule is to never, ever, whatever the cost to your own actions, allow a high level rogue to get a full-attack round of sneak attacks on you.

On the other hand, it is a little easier for DDO rogues to get their sneak attacks than against a good tactical DM in PnP (given intelligent opponents), and the various "Way of" enhancements can be interesting (but perhaps too expensive).

The problem here is that in the end, most of the rogue enhancements revolve around boosting the existing rogue skills to functional levels, rather than giving important combat advantages (certainly nothing that compares to Armor mastery/agility, Bulwark of Good or Critical Rage). This means that much of what a rogue spends in AP are devoted to keeping his/her secondary class functions (trap-monkeying, lock-picking, stealth, etc.) viable, without which many of these skills are next to useless.

[DSL]

Along these lines, one idea might be to give rogues an enhancement line that improves the effects of certain weapon types, such as an enhancement line that:

-Raises the save DC on the effects of Paralyzers, Banishers, Smiters, etc.

-Increases the stat damage from piercing, bone-breaking and enfeebling weapons

-Increases the percentage chance of the special effects from a Weighted, Tendon Slice, or Deception weapon

-Improves the burst damage on elemental burst weapons

-Grants sneak-attack damage when using a damage-dealing wand


Ultimately, giving a small chance to insta-kill on a sneak attack while affected by a limited use clickable boost doesn't seem to be too strong, given the items/enhancements/stats commonly seen in DDO.

[Aspenor]

Ultimately, giving a small chance to insta-kill on a sneak attack while affected by a limited use clickable boost doesn't seem to be too strong, given the items/enhancements/stats commonly seen in DDO.

My point exactly. An upgrade to the enhancement of the variety I suggested would hardly be overpowered, and would give players a fun option. I doubt the enhancement would suddenly become the new fad-of-the-month, since it would be attached to a limited use clickable.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I say give Rogues (and perhaps Assassins only, for now) Coup de Grace against Helpless mobs. Most players can kill a helpless mob in 3-6 hits anyway, so why not give Assassin Rogues a specialty?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I say give Rogues (and perhaps Assassins only, for now) Coup de Grace against Helpless mobs. Most players can kill a helpless mob in 3-6 hits anyway, so why not give Assassin Rogues a specialty?

I really like that idea... A slow measures stroke and the victim falls. I always enjoyed that in PnP.

[Bizbag]

Mostly true, but a little oversimplified. Rogues can still pump out lots of melee damage, but it is lower than it should be in relative terms. The +8 to dmg DDO rogues can get over their PnP counterparts certainly doesn't compare to the advantages babarians' can get in DDO, nor even to the exaggerated Str scores of DDO fighters over their PnP equivalents. In PnP, the one tactical rule is to never, ever, whatever the cost to your own actions, allow a high level rogue to get a full-attack round of sneak attacks on you.

This is really the core problem here. Rogues in PnP are the deadliest DPS'ers out there, but when a barbarian can boost his Strength +10, take Crit Rage, etc., while a rogue can merely get +8 damage on sneak attacks, they really fall behind.

[Aeneas]

Coup de grace would be more usefull than all 3 mind affecting poisons combined. Please do this. I might actually play my pure rogue again.

[DSL]

Coup de grace would be more usefull than all 3 mind affecting poisons combined. Please do this. I might actually play my pure rogue again.

That would be cool. Dammit, if mind flayers can do it, I want to too... umm, except for the whole brain-eating thing - I'll poke out their brains, but I don't want to eat them.

[lizardo666]

Definately worth a "bump"

Wrote a thread myself on the "chance to apply poison" and how it makes it completely useless.

This needs to be tweaked, or completely rewritten.