why did turbine kill the casters?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

do you want to be able to stand in your own firewall and die?

Nice reply....completely ignore the questions the OP has, nice.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Im not a PnP'er anymore, used to play way, way back, so can someone explain touch AC to me?

Thank you.

[llevenbaxx]

Im not a PnP'er anymore, used to play way, way back, so can someone explain touch AC to me?

Thank you.

Touch attacks are ones that bypass armor(including natural armor) and shield bonuses. Your dex, dodge and spells such as mage armor and shield(because they are force not physical) do count twards your touch AC.

Many mage spells use a "ranged" touch attack. So they only need to beat the type of defenses I mention to land those spells.

Just the gist of it as I understand it.

Edit: Does mage armor and shield correctly protect you(give AC bonus) from attacks by ghosts and wraiths in DDO? Never thought to check that.

[Mercules]

Im not a PnP'er anymore, used to play way, way back, so can someone explain touch AC to me?

Thank you.

Yes... It's easily explained, you simply read this.

Touch Attacks: Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.

[Nerate_Mireth]

and yes i do know cause unlike most people here that bit h and moan about how long it takes i do build computer games. and i do 3d graphic animation!! i have been working on a D&D type version of UO for years only i have been doing it by myself! and i had ALL the spells in D&D working WITH graphics. had ALL the races working with graphics both of which only took me 2 months to do!!

What I want to know is this......did you code this for YOUR machine or did you code it to work with the vast number of video cards, motherboards, CPUs, Memory Configurations, etc? What works great with one configuration is garbage on another and thus you have to change things until you get the major combinations to all work right. And to do that you must have a FORTUNE to actually test it with all the different combinations.

As for friendly fire try this scenario: Ranged attackers in a position that cannot be reached by melee types. Ranger stands behind tank who is shield blocking for him, fires and rolls a 1, critical fumble, shoots tank in the back of the head with his arrow and kills him. Ranged attackers then kill ranger. Game over. No one wants to play anymore.
Scenario 2: Same as above but substitute a caster who throws a fireball and kills both the tank and himself instantly. No one wants to play and game over.
Scenario 3: Game is made where you can only cast X spells per rest based on the rules. So a level 14 wizard could cast 4xLevel 1, 4xL2, 4xL3, 4xL4, 3xL5, 3xL6 and 2xL7 spells total. This means no resists for party, no mezzing the 60 mobs you come across in a quest, and just plain not much in the arcane sense. Too bad, so sad, no casters in the game because they all quit after crying that they were nerfed to the original BLUE RULES set of D&D!

[spyderwolf]

hmm for that matter what is with the spell points? could they not figure out how to set it to where you can only cast a certain amount of spells per rest, per level? that woulda been ALOT easier then trying to get everyone happy with the amount of spell points they got. i say get rid of the spell points and the unlimited amount of fireballs. in real DnD at level 5 you was lucky to cast 2-3 fireballs yet here i can cast like 6 maximised and empowered fireballs.

heck now only difference i see in a wiz - sorc is that sorc can change thier spells without resting where a wiz has to rest. other then that i see no difference. OH and that sorc cant gain new spells from scrolls.

have you EVER been in a high level ddo dungeon? you realize the amount of hit points EVERY single mob has? if you gave caster the et amount of spells per day they have in PnP Every caster would be out of spells after 3-4 "fights". Meaning it would useless to even bring casters into quests as 95% of the time they would be just being soaking up mana not doing anything. I have a capped sorc with maximum mana trust me on this if the amount of spells we could cast were the same as pnp no one would be a caster out of sheer boredom of having nothign to do after 3 minutes in the quests.

[Bizbag]

yeah i can understand the extra to hit being nullified but NOT the damage!!!!

Sneak attack only applies to physical attacks, not magical spells.

If you're talking about the flanking bonus you get for being behind a creature, that indeed does apply to ray spells, but it doesn't matter in DDO because you don't need to make a touch attack roll for ray attacks.

[Bizbag]

Touch attacks are ones that bypass armor(including natural armor) and shield bonuses. Your dex, dodge and spells such as mage armor and shield(because they are force not physical) do count twards your touch AC.

Many mage spells use a "ranged" touch attack. So they only need to beat the type of defenses I mention to land those spells.

Just the gist of it as I understand it.

Edit: Does mage armor and shield correctly protect you(give AC bonus) from attacks by ghosts and wraiths in DDO? Never thought to check that.

Size bonuses count, too.

[Missing_Minds]

Sneak attack only applies to physical attacks, not magical spells.

If you're talking about the flanking bonus you get for being behind a creature, that indeed does apply to ray spells, but it doesn't matter in DDO because you don't need to make a touch attack roll for ray attacks.

Actually sneak attack does apply (pnp) if you are
1) within 30 feet.
2) using a single targeting spell much like a ray. Lightningbolt won't cut it. (aka you must roll to hit. I don't know if MM works or not. don't think it does.)

What I forget is if this is generic across the board or only part of the Arcane Trickster prestige class.

[Bizbag]

Actually sneak attack does apply (pnp) if you are
1) within 30 feet.
2) using a single targeting spell much like a ray. Lightningbolt won't cut it. (aka you must roll to hit. I don't know if MM works or not. don't think it does.)

What I forget is if this is generic across the board or only part of the Arcane Trickster prestige class.

Imma check my DMG right now about that... look for an edit to this post. I do know that you CAN crit with a ray attack as long as you have to roll to hit.

EDIT: The arcane trickster has no such ability. Still researching sneak attack.

[Katrina]

I'm not sure why you believe spells should apply to the abilities you mention.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm

Favored Enemy (Ex)
At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm

As for rogues I see no mention of it being applied only to weapons. However since sneak attacks are only made at "vital spot" for extra damage, I would say you would have to roll a ranged touch attack to make one. Since we don't have ranged touch attacks in the game, imho think it's better to negate the effect rather then giving out the extra damage for free.



Also, if you think arcanes are "killed" as you put it, I would recommend watching some higher level socerers and wizards out kill the melee's at lvl 14.

[Bizbag]

I did some searching, and I was wrong. You CAN indeed sneak attack with a ray spell in PnP.

Link to the Wizards page which contains the following:

Spells as Sneak Attacks

Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell.

Ranged spells are effective as sneak attacks only at ranges of 30 feet or less (just like any other ranged sneak attack).

A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell inflicts extra damage according to the attacker's sneak attack ability, and the extra damage dealt is the same type as the spell deals. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell inflicts 2d4 points of acid damage, plus an extra 5d6 points of acid damage from the sneak attack (note that continuing damage from this spell is not part of the sneak attack). Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage.

If the sneak attack with a weaponlike spell results in a critical hit, the damage from the spell is doubled but the extra sneak attack damage is not doubled (as with any sneak attack).

With spell effects that allow you to make multiple attack rolls, such as the energy orb spells or the Split Ray feat from Tome and Blood, you must treat the effect like a volley -- only the first attack can be a sneak attack.

However, in DDO, there is no attack roll for ray spells, so it's fair that we cannot sneak attack with them.

[QuantumFX]

hmmm as a ranger i attack a favored enemy i see 14+6 as damage same for sneak attacks as a rogue. cause ALL extra damage is added after crits. sneak attacks AND fav. att's yet with them combined still the highest i seen at any given time on a bonus using a weapon otehr then a spell was 6 like i said before from what i have seen that aint working. it should show something like raipier 1d6+2 ok so it would be say at max dam 6+2+6+6+str2 now add it up10x2 for crit 20+6+6 or 20+12 considering sneak attacks and fav attacks are added after all other damage.

i'm referring to my 10th level 24 STR ranger. Running through Stormcleave last night he critted a giant (a favored enemy for him.) for 47 points of damage before ice effect and before puncturing damage. It's a lot easier to see the favored enemy damage with a high level ranger.

The point of my first post is to show that a multiclassed ranger/rogue does get the bonus damage from both sources on each attack. (ex. if you're a 10 STR ranger/rogue using a rapier and flanking a giant (giant is a favored enemy in this example) you would roll 1d6 Base Damage + Favored enemy damage bonus (In this ex +4) multiplied by crit multiplier + whatever your sneak attack dice are (in this ex 2d6). If you rolled a 3 for the rapiers damage and 5 for the sneak attack dice you would see 7 +5 as your damage.)

Does that clarify it for you?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Never noticed Rogue/Ranger didn't stack. Never looked to be honest.
I agree, makes sense they should be there. Not the end of the world if they're not though.

I didn't either...
Never put much enhancements into FE......just assumed I was getting a small bonus. And since my first FE was undead, didn't really matter cause SA doesn't work.

I suppose with the right enhancements you could get a lot of damage this way if it did stack.......never thuoght about it.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

have you EVER been in a high level ddo dungeon? you realize the amount of hit points EVERY single mob has? if you gave caster the et amount of spells per day they have in PnP Every caster would be out of spells after 3-4 "fights". Meaning it would useless to even bring casters into quests as 95% of the time they would be just being soaking up mana not doing anything. I have a capped sorc with maximum mana trust me on this if the amount of spells we could cast were the same as pnp no one would be a caster out of sheer boredom of having nothign to do after 3 minutes in the quests.

My caster would be tanking!
But yeah, we don't need to take away from casters in theis mellee biased game any more than we already have.

friendly fire as another poster suggested would mean that all arcanes only cast buffs....not the world I want to live in.

Sometimes it is almost sad that my wizard's great weapons never get used......i don't even get to use those scrolls of Tenser's Transformation that I keep around in case I run out of mana......someone always DVs me of gives me a mana pot......or harrasses me about being capped and recalling out for mana....
good rapiers and shortswords (drow), weapon finesse, 26 dex......possible tenser's transformation, or divine power clickies.......never used.....sad....so sad.

[Karethon]

i'm referring to my 10th level 24 STR ranger. Running through Stormcleave last night he critted a giant (a favored enemy for him.) for 47 points of damage before ice effect and before puncturing damage. The lvl 10 favored enemy damage is +6 not + 1d6. (It's better than the P&P rules in that we don't apply the additional +2 to a specific group like in P&P.) It's a lot easier to see the favored enemy damage with a high level ranger.

The point of my first post is to show that a multiclassed ranger/rogue does get the bonus damage from both sources on each attack. (ex. if you're a 10 STR ranger/rogue using a rapier and flanking a giant (giant is a favored enemy in this example) you would roll 1d6 Base Damage + Favored enemy damage bonus (In this ex +4) multiplied by crit multiplier + whatever your sneak attack dice are (in this ex 2d6). If you rolled a 3 for the rapiers damage and 5 for the sneak attack dice you would see 7 +5 as your damage.)

Does that clarify it for you?

Actually, I was referring to how drgsldr69 listed the damage, including this from a post other than the one I previously quoted:

not the end of the world ??? hmm lets see here +1d6 sneak attack damage +1d6 favored enemy damage = +2d6 damage at low levels which can make a HUGE difference

In post I had quoted and responded to earlier, he implied that the favored enemy damage was added after being multiplied for a critical, which is incorrect.

Perhaps I'm not following some part of the conversation, but I don't recall ever saying that a ranger/rogue multiclass would not get the benefits of both classes. The OP repeatedly claimed that FE damage was +1d6, which is not the case. He also stated that he saw it as a x+y value when attacking, which is also incorrect.

[Hence]

I agree that we need another difficulty level on all quests that allow Friendly Fire rules. This would take PvP to a new level also.

Think about holding events in which you race your fellow party members to the finish, trying to kill them on the way through the quest while not dying yourself. The Barbarians Sprint Boost enhancement would actually be taken!!

OMG that would be so fun... caster runs through a door, throws up a max+emp+extended Firewall on door. Run through THAT suckers!!
It would be great fun in low level encounters, with high level characters!

Or, just working as a team on "Insane FF" mode would add a huge challange to the game. It would require the casters to go out in front to cast there spells, then run behind the melee. The melee would have to be conservative in their wild swings. Two Handed Fighters would need much more space.

Just make the favor special and seperate, like team cooperation favor.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The reason friendly fire doesn't exist is not because of bad casters. It's to prevent griefing. As much fun as PKing that annoying person who keeps zerging ahead would be you may as well turn every instance into a PvP zone.

God I would love this! oops had the wronf object targeted.....sorry about that......man, it happened again, I'm really sorry........Again?, sorry I really don't know whay that keeps happening.

too bad all we have are grease clickies.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Touch attacks are ones that bypass armor(including natural armor) and shield bonuses. Your dex, dodge and spells such as mage armor and shield(because they are force not physical) do count twards your touch AC.

Many mage spells use a "ranged" touch attack. So they only need to beat the type of defenses I mention to land those spells.

Just the gist of it as I understand it.

Edit: Does mage armor and shield correctly protect you(give AC bonus) from attacks by ghosts and wraiths in DDO? Never thought to check that.

I'm pretty sure I've read posts that say your normal AC is used for incorporeal cretures to hit you.......so Mage armor is useless unless it rasies your AC, which is doubtful by the time you are fighting wraiths etc.

I keep forgeting this, and still have mage armor spell and clickies to use when I fight these creatures.....useless if the forums are correct....but also if I've learned anything alse from the forums it is that I should keep the clickies in the bank for when they change this.

[Vinos]

God I would love this! oops had the wronf object targeted.....sorry about that......man, it happened again, I'm really sorry........Again?, sorry I really don't know whay that keeps happening.

too bad all we have are grease clickies.

Sure it would be funny. Until it happens to you.