Ranger Toughness?

[Roguewiz]

All classes should have access to toughness enhancements, just not the same ones "primary" melee get.

Fighters/Paladins/Barbarians
5
10
15
20

Rogues/Bards/Rangers
4
8
12
16

Clerics/Sorcerers/Wizards
3
6
9
12

Something like this would be reasonable. They would still have lower HP than "Primary" melee, but their survivability will go up.

IMO at least.

[bobbryan2]

All classes should have access to toughness enhancements, just not the same ones "primary" melee get.

Fighters/Paladins/Barbarians
5
10
15
20

Rogues/Bards/Rangers
4
8
12
16

Clerics/Sorcerers/Wizards
3
6
9
12

Something like this would be reasonable. They would still have lower HP than "Primary" melee, but their survivability will go up.

IMO at least.

It's not a bad idea... but Rangers aren'te exactly in the same league as bards and rogues.

[Roguewiz]

It's not a bad idea... but Rangers aren'te exactly in the same league as bards and rogues.

I can conceed that point. In PnP, Rangers can make great "tanks". However, that isn't the route DDO went. You could also argue that Clerics shouldn't be coupled with the arcanes

[Dingo123]

If anything it should be based on your hitpoints per level. Clerics and Rangers roll the same for their level. Bards and Rogues the same for theirs, Wizards and Sorcs the same for theirs.

[bobbryan2]

I can conceed that point. In PnP, Rangers can make great "tanks". However, that isn't the route DDO went. You could also argue that Clerics shouldn't be coupled with the arcanes

Rangers make amazing tanks in DDO. 26 str, 28 dex, 26 con... can rage up to 410 HP, and has done over 200 points of damage on crits with a +5 greataxe of righteousness.

Now.. just because players make dinky rangers doesn't mean DDO went a different route.

[llevenbaxx]

I dont see why they wouldnt give rangers a toughness enhancement line. They are a melee class just like the others. Bottom line is they made the other melee classes "tougher" than what they were, why wouldnt the ranger class follow suit? Maybe like another poster said make it a little lesser than the others.

Never mind everyone just make dwarf rangers, problem solved.

[Roguewiz]

If anything it should be based on your hitpoints per level. Clerics and Rangers roll the same for their level. Bards and Rogues the same for theirs, Wizards and Sorcs the same for theirs.

That works too, but they would have to increase the Barbarian toughness because they are a d12. Perhaps, something like this

Barbarian
6
12
18
24
=60 more hp (10 higher than before)

Fighter/Paladin
5
10
15
20
=50 more hp

Cleric/Ranger
4
8
12
16
=40 more hp

Bard/Rogue
3
6
9
12
=30 more hp

Wizard/Sorcerer
2
4
6
8
=20 more hp

[Maldini]

Someone certainly never read/watched LotR. I would definitely place Aragorn in the 'tough meat-shield' class instead of the 'superhuman speed and cat-like agility' class. Perhaps you are confusing "elf" for "ranger"?



And someone else has definitely never run with my rogue (or any of the other many rogues and rangers out there who can out-damage and stay alive longer than the majority of those so-called "melee classes").

I've run with more rogues that you shake a stick at. I don't have to run with someone's character who thinks they're stronger than any other rogue in the history of the game. I've run with uber damage rogues before. They're damage is situational because they have to not have aggro. They have to leave aggro in the hands of the Primary melee who can maintain higher DR's and higher AC's, then the rogue.

[Oswald_Gobblesnot]

Never mind everyone just make dwarf rangers, problem solved.

I was about to say the same thing. If you're so worried about hit points, make a dwarven ranger. You'll get +2 CON base and access to Dwarven Toughness. Need more hit points, you can take Dwarven Constitution for another +2 CON. Overall you're getting at level 14 another 28 hp just from the constitution boosts. If you take the toughness feat and enhancement line you get another 66 hit points at level 14 (I think).

I'm sure that the ones that are really raising a stink about this are playing elven rangers. They're the ones most affected by the -2 CON. When you compare them to the dwarf, they're actually four points lower since dwarves get +2 added to their base con score. Total difference with the same starting base con means the elf has 56 fewer hit points at level 14. It's a balance or choice, do you want higher hit points or a higher dexterity which usually translates into higher AC and attack scores. The dwarf can soak more damage, but the elf may not get hit as much, though I think most of know that unless your AC is insanely high, mobs tend to hit you at will on elite. You may want it all, but sadly you can't have everything you want.

[Elthbert]

I'm pretty sure nobody ever took Tougness in PnP unless they were using it to qualify for a PrC. It granted all of 3 HP.

No I had a player in my campain just recently--- shocked me to know end, but he wanted his bard to have 11 Hp at first level so he took it. Still that was the first time I had ever seen anyone do it.

[Lifespawn]

except dwarfs won't have lower ac or hit as they can take the axe enhancments for to hit and damage and dwarven armor mastery to add more dex bonus to things like the kds.

Dwarfs for the win on any class just asking for a Full bab class access to toughness if they take the feat.

[Seneca_Windforge]

I was about to say the same thing. If you're so worried about hit points, make a dwarven ranger. You'll get +2 CON base and access to Dwarven Toughness. Need more hit points, you can take Dwarven Constitution for another +2 CON. Overall you're getting at level 14 another 28 hp just from the constitution boosts. If you take the toughness feat and enhancement line you get another 66 hit points at level 14 (I think).

I'm sure that the ones that are really raising a stink about this are playing elven rangers. They're the ones most affected by the -2 CON. When you compare them to the dwarf, they're actually four points lower since dwarves get +2 added to their base con score. Total difference with the same starting base con means the elf has 56 fewer hit points at level 14. It's a balance or choice, do you want higher hit points or a higher dexterity which usually translates into higher AC and attack scores. The dwarf can soak more damage, but the elf may not get hit as much, though I think most of know that unless your AC is insanely high, mobs tend to hit you at will on elite. You may want it all, but sadly you can't have everything you want.

You've pointed out the primary reason why I think that everyone who has Toughness should have the same Toughness enhancement.

Dwarves should have an advantage in the hit point department, but between their Con bonus and their access to racial toughness enhancements, it is literally night and day if you aren't a Paladin/Fighter/Barbarian. My dwarven strength rogue, when compared to a friend's (12 base Con I think) elven rogue (level 9) had DOUBLE the hit points -- 70-ish as compared to 140-ish, and I now have even more from the third level Toughness enhancement! Just because you aren't a Dwarf doesn't mean that you should have a pitiful hit point total. The gap between Dwarves (or Warforged, I guess) and everyone else is way too big.

I'd like it if it were possible to play a non-dwarven ranger/rogue/bard/cleric that wasn't a relative wimp in the hit point department.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

I'm of the opinion that dwarven toughness should be a nice thing for dwarven multiclassers to have, like how human versatility is nice if you're a multiclassed rogue and can't get your rogue skill boost maxed.
Therefore, dwarven toughness should not stack with class toughness.
Yes, it means dwarves of classes that don't normally get the toughness line will have it, but it'll lower the gap in then melee department.

[QuantumFX]

Just some food for thought - Humans and warforged don't have racial toughness enhancements because they have enhancement chains to be healed more efficently by clerics. (Yes I understand WF'ed are making up for a deficit but they also have multiple sources of healing.)

I'm of the opinion that dwarven toughness should be a nice thing for dwarven multiclassers to have, like how human versatility is nice if you're a multiclassed rogue and can't get your rogue skill boost maxed.
Therefore, dwarven toughness should not stack with class toughness.

Unless there is a major change in Mod 5 to how HV scales you can get a benefit from maxing out a class action boost chain and HV. Currently <Class> Extra Action boost adds to the pool of HV uses as well. Also the saves/ac bonus will stack with uncanny dodge. So there is synergy it just isn't as prevalant as it is with dwarves.

[Dingo123]

Just some food for thought - Humans and warforged don't have racial toughness enhancements because they have enhancement chains to be healed more efficently by clerics. (Yes I understand WF'ed are making up for a deficit but they also have multiple sources of healing.)

Tell us who your source is? You know, the Developer telling you how they balance the enhancements... rather than just say, pulling it out of your ass and acting like it's fact?

[Maldini]

Actually I didn't even think about it, but rangers do get toughness enhancements...if they're a dwarf.

There's your equalizer. A Dwarf Ranger can get the same benfit of a Human/Halfling/Drow/Elf/Warforged Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin.

[lostinjapan]

I've run with more rogues that you shake a stick at. I don't have to run with someone's character who thinks they're stronger than any other rogue in the history of the game. I've run with uber damage rogues before. They're damage is situational because they have to not have aggro. They have to leave aggro in the hands of the Primary melee who can maintain higher DR's and higher AC's, then the rogue.

I never said my rogue was "stronger than any other rogue in the history of the game." I said you had never run with my rogue before or any other rogue or ranger (mc or pure) who could out-perform most so-called 'melee tanks' in both damage output and damage resistance.

You avoid twisting my words and I promise to avoid trying to teach you anything new.

[Aeyr]

As a big fan of Rangers, I was always saddened by how DDO, and arguably WoTC began "softening" the Ranger into its current role. I've always been more of an Aragorn fan than a Legolas fan, and as such prefer the more STR-based (or arguably balanced) Ranger builds, but Rangers nowadays seem to be largely encouraged to go the Drizzt or Legolas route and be ultra quick and dexterous, but fairly soft and fragile in comparison with the "tanks". This is almost as if the developers really saw and implemented Rangers as more of a Rogue with slightly better aim and some survival skills, but with none of the rogue's sneak attack dps bonuses.

As for HPs, the d8 thing (3+ ed) suggests that Rangers were changed to not handle as much punishment as the tanks. This online game exacerbates the issue by applying additional toughness enhancements that can further widen the gap between rangers and tanks on average. This is very clearly a deliberate action on the part of the developers, and though I'd support Rangers being not pushed further away from their old fighterish role and into their new "less tough" role, I sincerely doubt the developers will alter their perception of how Rangers should be and so expect them not to give them any toughness bonuses as it would conflict with their apparent philosophy on the class. I'm not saying its wrong, just defined too specifically and restrictively for my own taste.

In summary, I'd vote for giving Rangers the same toughness options as other tanks, but I don't expect that to happen. Sadly imo, 4th edition will probably continue the trend with Rangers getting even less tough, but I think their attack prowess will stay strong.

[Jaysensen]

Any of you who think Rangers cant "tank" are sorely misinformed.

[Maldini]

I never said my rogue was "stronger than any other rogue in the history of the game." I said you had never run with my rogue before or any other rogue or ranger (mc or pure) who could out-perform most so-called 'melee tanks' in both damage output and damage resistance.

You avoid twisting my words and I promise to avoid trying to teach you anything new.

I've run with extreme damage rogues that still couldn't keep aggro from me or that had the DR of my barb, so I'm still not getting your point.