really tired

[khonda]

So your one big plus for Paladins is actually a diversion from the PnP rules and therefore subject to someday being nerfed?

In PnP a level 14 Paladin has a caster level of 7, so you should only be half as good as a cleric.

Paladins are in a sad state in DDO... and most of it has to do with inflated HP and AC that everyone has here.

If that's the case, I better prepare to have Lay on Hands nerfed too, since that heals far more than in PnP.

As it stands though, there are currently benefits of playing a paladin to level 14. Will they nerf it? Perhaps, they did do it with evasion.

But sorcerors and bards can change out spells, and rangers get both archery and two weapon fighting lines. There are significant deviations from PnP that were made intentionally.

Currently, I do feel that paladins do have benefits to play to high levels as compared to barbarians and fighters. If their spell casting is nerfed, then I would definitely agree that high level paladins would be far too limited compared to the others. I may retire my paladin at that point. But until then, I'll enjoy my level 14 paladin.

[Zenako]

Pure Paly (see below). With Magi item in hand, have over 450 Spell points to start a quest.

Buffs abound. Death Ward is focused. Gonna be needing that one often it seems. Three LoHs, and Divine Sovereignty every 20 minutes.

The effective DPS of Divine Sovereignty on a boss undead is REAL nice., followed by LoH and you can drop many of them real fast. Mix in a smite or two with a nice weapon.

One nice thing most of the Paladin spells have no material components to worry about or keep on hand. Freeeing up a few inventory slots.

Failing saves? Not very often thank you.

The role and benefits of being a Paladin increase as the party size decreases from what I have seen. I can take the role of a Cleric if needed (except for Raise Dead - that UMD is just too high to cover). I can fight quite effectively. Do I have the DPS of a raging barbarian...nope. But the mobs will die.

Oh I also have Cure Mod Focused and with the Adherents Pendant and some enhancements to Healing spells can do quite respectible amounts of healing that way.

[sigtrent]

I just don't care about class purity. For me each class just one tool to make the character I want. Just like I am not defined by my job, a character is not wholy defined by his class.

Paladins will no doubt get some upper end enhancments eventualy, all the classes probably will. The game only ends at 14 for the moment. Eventualy it will likely get up to 20 and there will be more reasons for and agaisnt staying pure to any class.

I think the advantage a pure paladin has would be in spell casting. If you build with it in mind, a paladin could have a decent SP pool and access to a number of usefull buffs for the party. Instead of just casting on yoruself you could, as many rangers do, provide the whole party wtih some protections.

Paladins are essentialy a defensive fighting class with offensive strenghts agaisnt specific enemies. They arn't so great in DDO for two reasons.
1. Few quests fully test the wide range of defenses paladins have
2. Many of the paladins most powerful benefits come early

[axebender]

this is true but at epic lvls if we ever reach that stage of the game has some great epic feats for paladins that just make them so much better at what they do

[bandyman1]

I wouldn't say a paladin is way behind a fighter, either, but they can be. To keep a paladin up with a fighter, you have to build more offensively than most paladins I've seen in game are built. Assuming the fighter has taken all the WS and WF feats, he's got an inherent +2 to hit (WF and GWF) and +4 to damage (WS and GWS). The paladin could take WF, but the other 3 feats are fighter only. So...

Paladin: WF, DF = +4 to hit, +3 to damage
Fighter: WF, GWF, WS, GWS = +2 to hit, +4 to damage

The difference I see is that the paladin needs a SP pool to get that +3/+3 from DF. Most times he can keep that running throughout a quest, but against beholders it's useless. His DF could also be dispelled, though I don't remember that happening often on my pure paladin. The fighter has an inherent +2 to hit and +4 to damage that is always present, although it is typed for a specific weapon type (typically slashing). The +3/+3 from DF is applicable to whatever weapon the paladin uses.

I agree with your assessment here, but you have to keep in mind that those are specific scenarios. And the pally can still boost DPS over the fighter in those instances with smite evil.

So, I stand by my original opinion of a paladin's DPS, is NOT gimped compared to a fighters. Just because someone's pure paladin build is when compared to that same person's fighter build, does NOT mean that that is the way things stand across the board.

[Frodo_Lives]

I have yet to see many paladins do the kind of damage over the long haul that a well built fighter can do. Maybe it's just me because I know that therre are some excellent DPS paladins out there.

I will admit that if I rebuilt my paladin today there are a few things I would do differently. He is a drow but he does not need to start with an 18 cha or a 14 wis. I would bump up str a couple of points and probably go a more combat oriented route in terms of feats.

I didn't mean to imply that my paladin is a waste of space for the party, he does have 524 sp and can buff the heck out the party and has a number of good points. It's just compared to a combat oriented fighter or barbarian his DPS over the long haul isn't in the same area.

Pure Paladins have gotten hit with a few nerfs though. DF, smite, and the aura nerfs did make them less desireable than before. The reduction in importance of AC at high end content means that the AC buffs they do give are not as important. They have a few good spells that can save the cleric some sp and with the right smite they can dish out a lot of damage over a short period of time.

[Mhykke]

I have yet to see many paladins do the kind of damage over the long haul that a well built fighter can do. Maybe it's just me because I know that therre are some excellent DPS paladins out there.

I will admit that if I rebuilt my paladin today there are a few things I would do differently. He is a drow but he does not need to start with an 18 cha or a 14 wis. I would bump up str a couple of points and probably go a more combat oriented route in terms of feats.

I didn't mean to imply that my paladin is a waste of space for the party, he does have 524 sp and can buff the heck out the party and has a number of good points. It's just compared to a combat oriented fighter or barbarian his DPS over the long haul isn't in the same area.

Pure Paladins have gotten hit with a few nerfs though. DF, smite, and the aura nerfs did make them less desireable than before. The reduction in importance of AC at high end content means that the AC buffs they do give are not as important. They have a few good spells that can save the cleric some sp and with the right smite they can dish out a lot of damage over a short period of time.

You're not comparing apples to apples. If your pally started w/ an 18 cha and a 14 wis, then you simply can't compare that to a "combat oriented fighter or barbarian". You need to compare the combat oriented paladin to that of a combat oriented fighter. My pally started w/ 18 str, and compares somewhat well to fighters in terms of DPS, but I've absolutely had to go the DPS route completely (max str, power attack, bloodstone, etc.) to compare well.

Compared to DPS barbarians, well, there's no comparison. Barbs leave both in the dust.

[bandyman1]

I have yet to see many paladins do the kind of damage over the long haul that a well built fighter can do. Maybe it's just me because I know that therre are some excellent DPS paladins out there.

I will admit that if I rebuilt my paladin today there are a few things I would do differently. He is a drow but he does not need to start with an 18 cha or a 14 wis. I would bump up str a couple of points and probably go a more combat oriented route in terms of feats.

I didn't mean to imply that my paladin is a waste of space for the party, he does have 524 sp and can buff the heck out the party and has a number of good points. It's just compared to a combat oriented fighter or barbarian his DPS over the long haul isn't in the same area.

Pure Paladins have gotten hit with a few nerfs though. DF, smite, and the aura nerfs did make them less desireable than before. The reduction in importance of AC at high end content means that the AC buffs they do give are not as important. They have a few good spells that can save the cleric some sp and with the right smite they can dish out a lot of damage over a short period of time.

I never meant to imply that you meant your paladin was a waste bro. My response was motivated by the fact that this opinion has seemed to become prevalent of late, and I really don't understand why .

I have a 14th lvl pure fighter. I also have a 14th lvl pure pally ( 28 point build ), and her 9th lvl ( 32 point ) rebuild.

Zyndris has maxed Str., which puts her at 32 ( +2 tome ) at lvl 14 without rage pots, or madstone rage/effects. She also has GWF, GWS, and Ipr. crit.
With a standard +5 khopesh, she'd dish out 1-8 + 25 per strike with PA on, at + 27 to hit. Crits on a 17-20 for 3x damage + 18 for her bloodstone. That's of course assuming no bard songs, and not using GH.

Now Selyra will have a 28 Str. ( +1 tome ) at lvl 14 without the same mods I didn't use on Zyn. I have Imp. crit, but no WF or WS, but I can DF myself constantly.
With the same +5 khopesh, she'll dish out 1-8 + 22 per strike with PA on, at + 26 to hit. Same crit range, same mods on a crit.

Now the situations Blazer mentioned do arise, but they aren't prevalent by any means. And Sel has smite evil for those situations, allowing her a massive boost to DPS over the fighter in those instances.

So that's 3 points of damage per strike lower than my fighter, or 9 on a crit. Assuming I pull a +3 Str tome somewhere along the way, the gap would narrow to 2 points per strike, and 6 on a crit.

I just don't see how that could be considered gimp .

Especially since Sel could use every bit of SP for DF, and still would have better saves, healing/neg-effect wand usage, and 3 LoH/1 unyielding sovereignty to use per rest. And between the daggertooth's belt and maxed bulwark, will have an AC = to a dwarven fighter with both armor mastery lines maxed.

Don't get me wrong, I love my fighter....but I love my pally too. And she's not gimped compared to any one-handed fighter builds I've seen.

[Mithran]

The problem with many Fighter and Barbarian builds is that they are cleric-reliant, and Fighters and Barbarians don't typically make donations to clerics; that's the job of the tithing paladin.

Brutality is my second paladin build, and Finduilas is about my sixth or seventh. Paladins have more demands on their stat points than Fighters do, but they don't need to beg clerics for their various resistances, Restorations, and heals. Brutality has nowhere near the Str needed for survival. Ermizhad doesn't have the Hit Points. I think I've hit my own style of play's sweet spot with a 1 Fighter/11 Paladin/2 Rogue build. I'm working on a pure Paladin at the same time, but the 2 levels of rogue help a lot, and Dexterity comes cheap to elves, my chosen race.

[Lillitheris]

A 24 Str paladin is basically the same as a 30 Str fighter thanks to Divine Favor.
The fighter might have a few extra feats - but the paladin has access to a good selection of spells, up to 4 LoHs, astronomical saves and almost equal AC.

I don't know what all this fuss is about. Caius (pure 14 paladin) can hold his own in every quest out there. Even though she is not pure, the same goes for Lucilla (drow 12 paladin / 2 fighter, 28 Str and Power Attack).

[Kaboth]

Well I can say my Drow Pally 14 is not gimped. He may not have the most outrageous DPS, He may not have the best AC, he may not have the most HP but he IS very self-suffcient, with a pretty good AC and Pretty good HP, with pretty good DPS, one of the best saves in the game, etc..

My pally has about 250 HP, a 46 AC, Uses Khopeshes for DPS, has a almost a 200 point heal 3/rest, has a 20 UMD, 400 SP, 5 smite evils a day, his buffs, and his str is a 25 and his Cha is a 26 and his saves are in the mid twenties or higher. I am sure I could tweek him out more if need be, but he holds his own pretty good.

This not to say that Pally's could maybe use so pure build love, but I hardly think its the doom and gloom predicted here.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

My pure pali got deleted...
Sure!
She had great saves and the whole LOH stuff was cool...

But by level 12 she was just too...weak?

Might have been my build but I started to think 4 levels were all you needed...

I like pure builds with a future.

I am not into the fact that pali's in DDO dabble...a little rogue..a little fighter.

I was always under the belief that holy knights should remain pure...in every way.

Therefore, until it is fixed, and pali becomes undecidedly valuable to the party...other than that aura thingie, wand usage and saves...I will play other fighter types.

In my mind, a pali should not train with scalywags, brutes and those of questionable moral standing...

Purity of mind and soul used to mean something...
Now with a little time and effort...almost anyone can dabble in purity!

[Twerpp]

In this video-game of mobs with +500hp one lousy hit of smite evil isn't being scaled properly. In PnP it can be a game-breaking incapacitating blow that kills the boss baddie and saves the day, here its equivalent to one really nice crit, and yes a **** nice crit if you crit on it. However as a class special abilty it should be in scale with the mega hit-points given to mobs, it should be either a short action boost (20 is way too long) or Pallys should be given some more smite evils. I dont think a 5 second smite evil action boost would be overpowered or give Pallys an edge over over melees but bring them more in line with this video game where right now the PnP-like implentation is a little weak, its good for setting a one-hit high record that's about it.

What do you guys think?

[Twerpp]

My pure pali got deleted...
Sure!
She had great saves and the whole LOH stuff was cool...

But by level 12 she was just too...weak?

Might have been my build but I started to think 4 levels were all you needed...

I like pure builds with a future.

I am not into the fact that pali's in DDO dabble...a little rogue..a little fighter.

I was always under the belief that holy knights should remain pure...in every way.

Therefore, until it is fixed, and pali becomes undecidedly valuable to the party...other than that aura thingie, wand usage and saves...I will play other fighter types.

In my mind, a pali should not train with scalywags, brutes and those of questionable moral standing...

Purity of mind and soul used to mean something...
Now with a little time and effort...almost anyone can dabble in purity!

Sorry you deleted your pally because you felt so weak. As for the RP soapbox youre standing on you can't account for every persons story line. A rogue who found religion, a squire or knight who fought to be in the ranks of a holy order, or a Paladin fed up with the hierarchy of their order decides to grow in a different direction. Pure pally does need some love but should never be the fighter/barbs equal in melee. Multiclassing is all about diversity in builds and what class doesn't want a taste of the pallys awesome defensive power?

I do think full pallys should get back their +5 Aura's especially at 14th level elite content there's no way you can say the extra +1 AC/Save is overpowered.

PS I do think sorc/pally is a tough one to explain!

[Jondallar]

In this video-game of mobs with +500hp one lousy hit of smite evil isn't being scaled properly. In PnP it can be a game-breaking incapacitating blow that kills the boss baddie and saves the day, here its equivalent to one really nice crit, and yes a **** nice crit if you crit on it. However as a class special abilty it should be in scale with the mega hit-points given to mobs, it should be either a short action boost (20 is way too long) or Pallys should be given some more smite evils. I dont think a 5 second smite evil action boost would be overpowered or give Pallys an edge over over melees but bring them more in line with this video game where right now the PnP-like implentation is a little weak, its good for setting a one-hit high record that's about it.

What do you guys think?

I like that Idea, I find that my Smites are nice for UNdead boss types, its like getting a crit, However, its been ages (multiple months of playing) since I critted on a smit evil, and often have been actually missing mobs by rolling a 1 with my smites . The timer (5 sec) or adding more smits would be better, or they could fudge the numbers like they have done with LoH and maybe smits would be better

[hennebux]

Thnx for all the constructive feedback I was not trying to imply that pure pallies at 14 are gimp but like some one else said they are not invaluable to a party at high level.I feel the point does prove out though that the class was nerfed back at enhancements and there is an apparent gulf between multi's, other melees, and pallies.With paladins always coming out inferior.Remember if you would, smite evil doesn't always land. I've seen it miss a heck of alot.Loh is marginalized by the massive amount of hps flying around today.
The fact that pallies have to equip so many items just to hang, imho clearly outweighs their buffing abilty.Fighters and barbarians generally wear what they want, and trust me, can shuffle said gear a heck of alot easier when a nice item drops for them.When comparing paladins to other melees. I feel it's inconceivable for anyone to come up with a pure pally build that is on par.As well as the further embarassment that people who splash pally are more powerful than your pure class.Can any other class claim these lowly distinctions?

For suggestions.I agree with pure pally only loot, as well as the five second smite thing.I would also like to see an improved pally spell list with more pally only spells.A return on the auras to original but only at highest end.Heck might as well buff loh a little too.Some high end divine abilities would also be great (imagine intercession!)

As far as enhancements go...boy I could spend an hour on that alone...So far pally skills, ability points,and enhancements need a complete overhaul.I'll save that for another day...

P.s. Whoever said unyielding sovereignty worked on enemies ,hasn't been in contact with his deity lately...

[llevenbaxx]

The fact that pallies have to equip so many items just to hang, imho clearly outweighs their buffing abilty.Fighters and barbarians generally wear what they want, and trust me, can shuffle said gear a heck of alot easier when a nice item drops for them.When comparing paladins to other melees. I feel it's inconceivable for anyone to come up with a pure pally build that is on par.As well as the further embarassment that people who splash pally are more powerful than your pure class.Can any other class claim these lowly distinctions?

Depends on what you mean by more powerful. I dont thinks its an embarassment at all that a paly that splashes ftr is a slightly better ftr, kinda makes sense actually. Or that one that splashes rogue is a little more versatile. Pure class shouldnt really be any better or worse than a MC, just different

That said I wouldnt mind either seeing smite evil get a revamp. We need a couple more per rest or have it do about 2-2.5X more damage. It doesnt scale in uses with the amount of combat in the game or in damage with the amount of hps the mobs have. This is a combat game, the combat class feats should get the same steroids, the rest of the game and other classes injected.

[Emili]

A 24 Str paladin is basically the same as a 30 Str fighter thanks to Divine Favor.
The fighter might have a few extra feats - but the paladin has access to a good selection of spells, up to 4 LoHs, astronomical saves and almost equal AC.

I don't know what all this fuss is about. Caius (pure 14 paladin) can hold his own in every quest out there. Even though she is not pure, the same goes for Lucilla (drow 12 paladin / 2 fighter, 28 Str and Power Attack).

Fighter and pally fall at about the same to-hit and damages... most fighters however (when build for damage output) sport greater weapon specialization and power attack which comes to the equal of a pally under it's DF. My amilia (Pally) with her 28 str falls a little shy of my Emili (fighter) with her 32 str in overall dps... reason being though I think is Emili confirms every single crit in comparison to Ami... Emili also has cleaves and improved trip among other feats and enhancements to shore her up. Flanking mastery - which I used to consider a waste (but took for lack of other enhancements) makes quite a difference in a mobile combatant. Generally speaking though my fighters seem to have about 20% more dps on average then Amilia sporting her DF and smites. They use pretty mush the same weapons also SoS, nice 2handers and khopeshes. Both fighter and pally however do fall far behind the curve of a barbs greater rage combined with the critical rage enhancements... with an SoS and critting on 13 (40% of thier rolls) a damage built barb is pulling down the mob faster than any melee (self-buff a barb up to 50 str and a barb is brutal).

[wizzy_catt]

Both fighter and pally however do fall far behind the curve of a barbs greater rage combined with the critical rage enhancements... with an SoS and critting on 13 a damage built barb is pulling down the mob faster than any melee (self-buff a barb up to 50 str) and one out of 4 swings is well over 200.

48 str(so quicktoezy says) but if you want add extra potions hmmm yep 51 can be achieved. hmm what are you doing here lol go get some rests
quadruple rage: double madstone rage + barbie rage + rage clicky/potion am i missing something?

[jmonty]

after taking power attack and eating a 2 str tome, my pure pally seems to do alot better than before.

alot of this game is what gear you have and what you do with it. you just need the best weapons against the enemies you are fighting to come out on top.