Musing about Monk Mechanics

[Librarian]

Hey all,
So apparently Monks are pushed back to goodness-knows-when. I expect there's good reason.

Still, it's left me with a kung-fu hankering. I figured we monk-deprived users could dream up the game mechanics behind the class while we wait.

This is not a request for Turbine to make monks "my way" or anything. Really, it's all just speculation for the fun of it.

Here goes.


Sticking to the traditional D&D 3.5 rules set for Monks, our DDO Monk will have a 3/4 Base Attack Bonus and all good saves.

4 Skill points per level, with class skills Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, Heal, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Spot, Swim, and Tumble. Concentration and Perform could be chopped from that list since their usage in DDO is somewhat more limited than in Pen-and-Paper.

As for weapon proficiencies, start with Simple Weapons and add Shuriken, Kama, and perhaps add Nunchaku, Si, and Siangham as other exotic weapons. If not, who cares, we'd use our fists anyway.

At level 1, provide the Stunning Attack feat as a Bonus feat to replace the PnP's choice between Stunning Fist and Improved Grapple. I think it highly unlikely we'll ever see grapple-mechanics added to DDO.

Also at level 1, provide a new bonus feat Improved Unarmed Strike I, changing the Monk's unarmed damage from whatever measly amount it is now to 1d6. At regular levels thereafter, provide Improved Unarmed Strike II to up the damage to 1d8, III to 1d10, IV to 2d6, etc.

Also at level 1, provide the new bonus feat Monk AC I, adding the Monk's Wisdom bonus to his AC. At regular levels, give Monk AC II to add +1 to AC, III to add another +1, etc. If the Monk ever wears Armor (but not Robes or Docents) or possesses Mithral or Adamantine Body, this feat cannot be used.

Also grant the feat Flurry of Blows I. This feat works as a Stance like Combat Expertise and Power Attack, though is a tad more complicated. Rather than swapping Base Attack Bonus for a benefit, FoB reduces your attack bonus by 2 to provide an additional attack to your routine. At level 1, this would allow the Monk with a 0 Base Attack Bonus to attack twice, like a Fighter. At a later level provide Flurry of Blows II, which lessens the penalty to -1. Then Flurry of Blows III, which eliminates the penalty. Then Greater Flurry of Blows, which provides an additional attack on top of the first extra one.

2nd level? Evasion.
3rd? Improved Trip, without needing to meet the prereq of Combat Expertise. Also, give Ki Strike (Magic), which makes the Monk's unarmed attacks count as magic weapons for the sake of bypassing damage reduction. At later levels grant Ki Strike (Lawful) and Ki Strike (Adamantine).

Also at later levels, provide immunity to Poisons and Disease, Spell Resistance, Wholeness of Body (a self-targeting Lay on Hands, basically) and the like. The PnP Monk's Abundant Step (ie: Dimension Door) may need to be reworked, though I suppose it could stay as is.


Enhancement-wise I can see the following (likely self-explanatory):
Monk Skill: Jump
Monk Skill: Heal
Monk Skill: Tumble
Monk Skill: Hide
Monk Skill: Move Silently
Monk Wisdom
Monk Spell Resistance
Monk Stunning Attack

In addition, maybe a few specialization Enhancements...
Way of the Mockery could grant bonuses to attacks with Kamas, then the ability to deal Flensing Strikes (An attack like Stunning Attack or Sunder that forces the victim to save or take penalties to attacks, skills, saves, etc. Rather like a clicky Cursespew, but must be made with a Kama).
Way of Dol Dorn could require Longsword proficiency and provide the ability to Flurry with Longswords, attack bonuses, and the like.
Way of the Silver Flame could make your unarmed attacks count as Silver weapons, then Good weapons.


Thoughts so far? I intend to expand on this in the future. Maybe do the same for Druids or Artificers later.

[Dingo123]

Abundant Step would probably become Shadow Walk.

[Elsiah]

Hmmm....I would like to see the basic mechanics of the game include monk abilities as given in PNP, and THEN added enhancements and feats. If improved natural attack is added, the monk's damage die goes up by one, and continues to do so as he levels, so your monk hits as if he were a size category larger. this would help in keeping monk damage as powerful in DDO as it is in pen and paper. I think it would be cool to have elemental enhancements added as well, so when my monk does his flurry of blows, he can inflict fire, ice, etc so many times per rest.

skill boost enhancements would be very nice, especially if they stacked with the human boosts...i want a monk who can boost his jump to 80, and add in leap of the clouds...

[teddok]

Hey all,
So apparently Monks are pushed back to goodness-knows-when. I expect there's good reason.

Still, it's left me with a kung-fu hankering. I figured we monk-deprived users could dream up the game mechanics behind the class while we wait.

This is not a request for Turbine to make monks "my way" or anything. Really, it's all just speculation for the fun of it.

Here goes.


Sticking to the traditional D&D 3.5 rules set for Monks, our DDO Monk will have a 3/4 Base Attack Bonus and all good saves.

4 Skill points per level, with class skills Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, Heal, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Spot, Swim, and Tumble. Concentration and Perform could be chopped from that list since their usage in DDO is somewhat more limited than in Pen-and-Paper.

As for weapon proficiencies, start with Simple Weapons and add Shuriken, Kama, and perhaps add Nunchaku, Si, and Siangham as other exotic weapons. If not, who cares, we'd use our fists anyway.

At level 1, provide the Stunning Attack feat as a Bonus feat to replace the PnP's choice between Stunning Fist and Improved Grapple. I think it highly unlikely we'll ever see grapple-mechanics added to DDO.

Also at level 1, provide a new bonus feat Improved Unarmed Strike I, changing the Monk's unarmed damage from whatever measly amount it is now to 1d6. At regular levels thereafter, provide Improved Unarmed Strike II to up the damage to 1d8, III to 1d10, IV to 2d6, etc.

Also at level 1, provide the new bonus feat Monk AC I, adding the Monk's Wisdom bonus to his AC. At regular levels, give Monk AC II to add +1 to AC, III to add another +1, etc. If the Monk ever wears Armor (but not Robes or Docents) or possesses Mithral or Adamantine Body, this feat cannot be used.

Also grant the feat Flurry of Blows I. This feat works as a Stance like Combat Expertise and Power Attack, though is a tad more complicated. Rather than swapping Base Attack Bonus for a benefit, FoB reduces your attack bonus by 2 to provide an additional attack to your routine. At level 1, this would allow the Monk with a 0 Base Attack Bonus to attack twice, like a Fighter. At a later level provide Flurry of Blows II, which lessens the penalty to -1. Then Flurry of Blows III, which eliminates the penalty. Then Greater Flurry of Blows, which provides an additional attack on top of the first extra one.

2nd level? Evasion.
3rd? Improved Trip, without needing to meet the prereq of Combat Expertise. Also, give Ki Strike (Magic), which makes the Monk's unarmed attacks count as magic weapons for the sake of bypassing damage reduction. At later levels grant Ki Strike (Lawful) and Ki Strike (Adamantine).

Also at later levels, provide immunity to Poisons and Disease, Spell Resistance, Wholeness of Body (a self-targeting Lay on Hands, basically) and the like. The PnP Monk's Abundant Step (ie: Dimension Door) may need to be reworked, though I suppose it could stay as is.


Enhancement-wise I can see the following (likely self-explanatory):
Monk Skill: Jump
Monk Skill: Heal
Monk Skill: Tumble
Monk Skill: Hide
Monk Skill: Move Silently
Monk Wisdom
Monk Spell Resistance
Monk Stunning Attack

In addition, maybe a few specialization Enhancements...
Way of the Mockery could grant bonuses to attacks with Kamas, then the ability to deal Flensing Strikes (An attack like Stunning Attack or Sunder that forces the victim to save or take penalties to attacks, skills, saves, etc. Rather like a clicky Cursespew, but must be made with a Kama).
Way of Dol Dorn could require Longsword proficiency and provide the ability to Flurry with Longswords, attack bonuses, and the like.
Way of the Silver Flame could make your unarmed attacks count as Silver weapons, then Good weapons.


Thoughts so far? I intend to expand on this in the future. Maybe do the same for Druids or Artificers later.

I like this well thought out. Looks very good.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

I think it would be cool to have elemental enhancements added as well, so when my monk does his flurry of blows, he can inflict fire, ice, etc so many times per rest.

I'd rather see this effect on weapons (kama, quarterstaff, whatever else they add) and maybe gloves, etc.

But not built in to the class.

[Cowdenicus]

I would like to see clerics get their domains before monks make it to game.

[Ananvil]

Way of the Silver Flame could make your unarmed attacks count as Silver weapons, then Good weapons.

I'm still convinced that the Silver Flame is evil.

[Bizbag]

I'd rather see this effect on weapons (kama, quarterstaff, whatever else they add) and maybe gloves, etc.

But not built in to the class.

I'd actually prefer it if they didn't put elemental effects on gloves. It's the choice of the monk - do I deal 3d6 damage with my fist, or do I use my +1 flaming Kama?

I guess in DDO they'd have to pump up the monk's unarmed damage some, because normally at level 14 we wouldn't have +4 flaming kamas of pure good; we'd have something more comparable to a level 14 monk's unarmed damage.

[Ghoste]

I think it would be cool to have elemental enhancements added as well, so when my monk does his flurry of blows, he can inflict fire, ice, etc so many times per rest.

Why not just have items that do that, ie.gloves.

This is also the reason I want to make a wf monk/druid. He could use his heat/cool metal spell to add elemental damage to his fists. I call it the dire boarforged ninja build.

Abundant Step would probably become Shadow Walk.

Why not just have it function like a personal d-door instead of making a completely new ability? Shouldn't be that hard given what's already in the game.

[Bizbag]

I'm still convinced that the Silver Flame is evil.

I'd say the majority of them want to do what's right. However, when it comes to fighting evil, they are particularly vicious about it. They value honor, respect, and benevolence, but they have no qualms about smashing cults of Vol when they find them (No more Mr. Nice Guy). Think of it as a LG that is a bit heavier on the Lawful side than on the Good.

However, I believe the man who gives you Purge the Heretics is evil. A bit too influenced by the Rakshasa part of the Silver Flame, it seems.

[Ghoste]

I'd say the majority of them want to do what's right. However, when it comes to fighting evil, they are particularly vicious about it. They value honor, respect, and benevolence, but they have no qualms about smashing cults of Vol when they find them (No more Mr. Nice Guy). Think of it as a LG that is a bit heavier on the Lawful side than on the Good.

However, I believe the man who gives you Purge the Heretics is evil. A bit too influenced by the Rakshasa part of the Silver Flame, it seems.

EEEEEEEVIL! They are oppressors. With the birth of the Becoming God we will sweep through Thrane and throw down their blasphemous organization!

Death to all fleshlings!!!

[teddok]

I'd say the majority of them want to do what's right. However, when it comes to fighting evil, they are particularly vicious about it. They value honor, respect, and benevolence, but they have no qualms about smashing cults of Vol when they find them (No more Mr. Nice Guy). Think of it as a LG that is a bit heavier on the Lawful side than on the Good.

However, I believe the man who gives you Purge the Heretics is evil. A bit too influenced by the Rakshasa part of the Silver Flame, it seems.

I have always hated that quest from a perspective stand point. It just seemed wrong to have a church send me in to slaughter a bunch of people who dont agree with them. I do understand that on the other side of the coin that that has been happing for centuries in the real world.

[Ziggy]

Well i made a thread about monks awhile ago.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=114104

Heres what i wrote.

Ok... so we know monks are coming down the line.
Lets go over a few things that i think will need help or clarification.
1) Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.
We are missing 5 out of the 13 weapons a monk is proficient in. Any chance of the javelin, sling, sai, siangham and nunchaku making it in?
I mean this would give us some more blunt weapon options for the monk besides the club for 1 handed weapons.

2)Bonus Feat
At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat.

Will we have the choices or will it be stunning fist at first, Combat Reflexes(some sort of bonus to AC?) at 2nd, and Improved Trip at 6th.

3)Slow Fall (Ex)
At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm’s reach of a wall can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk’s ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with her monk level until at 20th level she can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.
Will this work like a clickie of featherfall?

4)Wholeness of Body (Su)
At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to twice her current monk level each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.
Will this work like LoH?

5)Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per day. Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down).
Considering how DD actually works in DDO, will this be exactly like a DD once per day(like the dragonmarks)?

6)Diamond Soul (Ex)
At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to her current monk level + 10. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance.
Considering the change to SR of Drow, how will you handle this one? will you make monks take enhancements or will you allow monks to reach higher SR then drow?

7)Quivering Palm (Su)
Starting at 15th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. She can use this quivering palm attack once a week, and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to her monk level. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wis modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time.
Will this be treated like a trip/stunning blow effect? you use it once per day, to see if you kill the creature?

8)Timeless Body (Ex)
Upon attaining 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)
A monk of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature.

These are both going to be useless as the game doesnt age, nor is language a barrier amongst other races(apparently everyone speaks common), Any changes to make those usefull, or will level 17 be a dead level for monks?

9)Empty Body (Su)
At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per monk level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her monk level.
WIll this be better then shadow walk?

10)Perfect Self
At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.
So at level 20, the monk will be immune to hold person, and will gain DR 10/magic. Do the monsters of DDO use magical weapons more often then not?

Discuss amongst yourselves, hopefully we can get some info from the devs.

[Librarian]

While many of the Silver Flame quests irk me as well (Purge the Heretics especially) that's a discussion for another thread.

For Slow Fall I would rather just reduce the Monk's falling damage, rather than a Feather Fall. FF provides more maneouverability than I think Slow Fall warrants.


As for keeping Monk damage competitive, Turbine might need to introduce new magic items. Amulets of Mighty Fists (gives a + to attack and damage for natural weapons and unarmed strikes), for example, which might be more useful now that you can get a Wisdom bonus from something other than a Periapt of Wisdom.

More later. Thanks for the contributions so far.

[QuantumFX]

I figured Turbine would take the easy way out on the Monk enhancements.
- Action Boost: Saves (Same as Paladin)
- Action Boost: Sprint (Same as Barbarian/Ranger)
- Action Boost: Haste (Same as Fighter/Rogue)

- Monk weapon damage. Applies damage bonus to weapons that can be used in a flurry
(Like Rogue Sneak Attack bonuses)
- Monk weapon accuracy. Applies to Hit bonus to weapons that can be used in a flurry
(Like Rogue Sneak Attack bonuses)

- Improved Ki Strike. Allows monk fists to bypass material based DR values. (Byshek, Cold Iron)

- Monk Improved Diamond Soul - Provides a higher SR rating

- Monk Improved AC Bonus

- Monk Improved Still Mind (Works like Elven Enchantment resistance)

- Monk Dexterity (Like Ranger/Rogue DEX Bonus)

- Monk Wisdom (Like Cleric CHA Bonus)

- Monk Stunning blow DC enhancement

- Monk Trip DC enhancement

- Monk additional wholeness of Body (See Paladin extra LoH)

- Monk additional Abundant Step (Depending on how this is implemented...)

- Monk additioanl Quivering Palm (Depending on how this touch range FoD is implemented :P)

- Monk Improved Mobility (See Fighter Mobility enhancement)

If they wanted to get more exotic

- Monk reactive damage bypass. Monk lvl 10 - Makes the monk's flurry attacks so fast that it bypasses all reactive damage (Fire/Chill Shield, Razorcats hide, etc.) (Before the whining begins let me remind you that a monk at this level has imp. evasion/a super high reflex save and would probably not take any damage from these attacks anyway.)

[VirieSquichie]

Monk mechanics...aren't those the guys that open up your car's hood and, without using any tools, tinker for 10 seconds, close the hood, start the car and the problem's gone?

Man, those would be cool.

[Librarian]

No, no, Monk Mechanics are the ones that fix your refrigerator with a solid roundhouse kick and a Zen riddle.

And before you mention him, Chuck Norris does not mend refrigerators, they mend themselves in fear. Now shut up.

To keep Monk unarmed damage competitive, there could be Monk Unarmed Damage enhancements. +1, +2, etc. Might not be enough to warrant investing in, I suppose.

Perhaps one could get a new property on Bracers: "of Fisticuffs" or "of Brawling" or "of Unarmed Strike" or what-have-you, providing a bonus to unarmed attacks. Perhaps others like "Unarmed Vertigo" or "Unarmed Weighted." Such items would really have limited use for classes other than Monks I suppose, save for Casters with a wand in one hand. But hey, who wants a Scepter of Force Mastery or whatever but a Wizard or Sorceror?

Just for fun, how about Monk Leap Attack, which provides a hefty attack and damage bonus if you're jumping? Might be amusing to watch.

[QuantumFX]

Thought of some more monk enhancement chains on the way home.

Slashing hand strike: Monk lvl 4 - 1 AP
Enhancement allows monk to bypass slashing DR when fighting unarmed. (ex zombies)

Mighty... Testicle... Strike!!!: Monk lvl 4; Giant Dodger - 1 AP
Enhancement increases the critical threat range by 2 and the critical hit multiplier of the monk's unarmed attacks when attacking Giant or larger sized creatures. Successful critical hits also stun giants making them unable to do nothing but double over in pain... (OK OK this one is a joke but I included it since it's obvious the enhancement developer has a dwarf fetish...)

Fists of Order: Rank 1 (Lvl 12) Rank 2 (Lvl 14) Rank 3 (Lvl 16)
AP cost 2/4/6
Rank 1 - Monk's unarmed attacks are enhanced by the power of order granting an additional 1d6 of damage to chaotic creatures
Rank 2 - Monk's unarmed attacks do an additional 2d6 of damage to chaotic creatures
Rank 3 - Monk's fists do an additional 1d6 of damage to neutral characters and 2d6 to chaotic creatures.

[smodge13]

for memory in pnp there are feats monks can take which add elemental/alignment damage to their fist attacks, just implement them and allow them to be taken as bonus feats (options seeing as we wont have improved grapple. so at lvl 1 maybe give the option of having either "stunning fist" or something like "flaming fist" that way giving options as well as bonus damage to monks fist)
this would also add a bit of difference between monks as you could go down the strategy path, using trips/stuns/sunders, or the elemental damage path.

[Librarian]

So, what have we got for class abilities, then?
Straight from PnP and adapted to DDO we have:
1st: Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Attack, Stunning Fist*
2nd: Bonus Feat**, Evasion
3rd: Still Mind
4th: Ki Strike (magic), Slow Fall 20ft
5th: Purity of Body
6th: Improved Trip, Slow Fall 30ft
7th: Wholeness of Body
8th: Slow Fall 40ft
9th: Improved Evasion
10th: Ki Strike (lawful)***, Slow Fall 50ft
11th: Diamond Body, Greater Flurry
12th: Abundant Step, Slow Fall 60ft
13th: Diamond Soul
14th: Slow Fall 70ft

*- I add Stunning Fist alongside Stunning Attack to provide the Monk a means to use his Wisdom modifier for Stun DCs instead of his Strength, whichever is higher.

**- Any thoughts what to replace the 2nd-level bonus feat with? The options in PnP, Combat Reflexes and Deflect Arrows, aren't in DDO, and the former is especially useless in a world without attacks of opportunity. Deflect arrows could work, though. Make it, say, a clicky that causes ranged attacks to miss. Or perhaps a flat %, like Concealment only against ranged.

***- I like the idea of an enhancement tree to improve Ki Strike (Lawful) because frankly, I can't think of one creature in DDO with Lawful DR. There's no Slaad, after all.

I also like the idea of Enhancements allowing alternate damage-types with unarmed attacks, but I also think that might make the various monk-weapons even less appealing. You keep a kama on you in case you fight zombies, right? Still, I like the idea. Have it a stance-like enhancement that when active alters the damage type on unarmed attacks to slashing. There could be a piercing equivalent, too.

Finally, I'd like to see different animations when Flurrying. Might be a bit much to ask, I don't really know how difficult animating stuff like that is. But I'd rather see a Monk doing something other than the current one-two-crotch-kick combo currently deployed by anyone else fighting unarmed. Similarly, I wouldn't mind an alternate unarmed Cleave animation. The current Zangief-style hammer-spin thing looks fine for a brute like a barbarian, but I'd think a spinning kick would fit a Monk a tad better. Maybe that's just me. I know that to be the least likely idea to be implemented, though.