What a waste!

[Dharma]

You said that "you gotta do Goodblades" ... which is false you don't have to unless you want the favor.

Favor shouldn't be free. If you don't like it then skip it. They can't make it so you don't have to and everyone else does, sorry you aren't that special. If they make it so that anyone that wants to can skip everyone will. Then were will the new people be? If you don't wanna help them learn, don't. But don't complain either when they get in your group and don't know how to play.

[M1A1]

You said that "you gotta do Goodblades" ... which is false you don't have to unless you want the favor.

There you go, now your thinking. And yes I do HAVE to do them...because it will come to a point where you need total favor for something they put into the game, like half-orcs. And your right it shouldnt be FREE, but I think I have auto-earned that little bit of favor out of the whole in the yr+ I've played this game.

[Mercules]

There you go, now your thinking. And yes I do HAVE to do them...because it will come to a point where you need total favor for something they put into the game, like half-orcs. And your right it shouldnt be FREE, but I think I have auto-earned that little bit of favor out of the whole in the yr+ I've played this game.

Welcome to your sense of entitlement. Please let me know how it works for you.

You don't have to move if you are in the middle of the street and a bus is coming. You might want to, but you don't have to. You might have incentive to run Goodblade's quests, but nobody MAKES you do it. Had this same discussion when I worked with kids with behavioral issues. "You make me..." Nope, that is a conscious decision you make.

[Coldin]

There you go, now your thinking. And yes I do HAVE to do them...because it will come to a point where you need total favor for something they put into the game, like half-orcs. And your right it shouldnt be FREE, but I think I have auto-earned that little bit of favor out of the whole in the yr+ I've played this game.

FYI, Half-orcs won't require favor to unlock. They're core DnD so everyone will get them. Same goes for Monks, Druids, and Half-elves.

[Dirac]

Welcome to ...

Merc, you probably want to edit this in a hurry. Your first statement is only kind of insulting. He does not have a sense of entitlement as in "wants something for nothing," but wants something for new characters based on what he did with old characters. You can disagree, and I do, but saying he is wrong, not because of logic or an error of reasoning, but because there is something wrong with his state of mind or functionality of his brain is way over the line (read again the analogy you are implicitly drawing at the end of your post).

This is not a complicated discussion. One side believes that by putting in time and effort in one character should give an xp or favor reward to future characters. This is not absurd, as you can already get a stat reward for future characters based on 1750 favor for earlier characters. The other side says no. One is a creation benefit (stats) the other is based on doing quests. Every character should start out the same place. I think both points of view are reasonable, I agree with the latter, and this is one where it makes sense to agree to disagree.

[Mercules]

Merc, you probably want to edit this in a hurry. Your first statement is only kind of insulting. He does not have a sense of entitlement as in "wants something for nothing," but wants something for new characters based on what he did with old characters. You can disagree, and I do, but saying he is wrong, not because of logic or an error of reasoning, but because there is something wrong with his state of mind or functionality of his brain is way over the line (read again the analogy you are implicitly drawing at the end of your post).

His statement is basically that he has spent a year+ playing the game so he is entitled to it. That is a false sense of entitlement.

The only correlation I drew between him and my previous work is that MANY people feel they are entitled to things they are not. In my current work I deal with PHDs that each believe that they personally are more important than the other PHD asking for help with their software, or that I should bend our policy and rules because they need this report for court in an hour and didn't bother to try and create it until now when they found out their database had been removed by their network admin so the software won't run.

I have little sympathy for those that feel they are entitled to something special for all the work they have done enjoying themselves on a fun hobby all year. Shouldn't they be thanking Turbine for providing this service instead?

[Hafeal]

Why should you get to keep the good parts of what you did and not the bad?

I would say because if it makes the game more enjoyable to do so and people will play more, get their friends to play and/or like the game better because of it, then do it. I am not saying this idea will do that, although I don't think it is as horrible an idea as some posts make it out to be.

It's not about the most fun for the players. It's about the most money for the gaming company, tempered by a threshold of how slow of advancement the majority of players will tolerate.

See above.

If XP was difficult to come by, or if dying meant something significant, I might agree with this kind of proposal. As it is, it's ridiculously easy to cap a character, even for a casual player like myself.

No offense Olaf, going by your sig, you are a casual player but that does not per se mean that xp is easy to come by. As a casual player myself, xp is slow, especially if you suffer death xp at higher levels as you progress through the game.

Stop dragging Dingo's previous posts into his new ones. Stop trying to tell him what he needs out of a game, what game he should go play, or psycoanalyze him. If you don't like his new idea, explain why this idea is a bad one.

Well said Dirac.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I would say because if it makes the game more enjoyable to do so and people will play more, get their friends to play and/or like the game better because of it, then do it. I am not saying this idea will do that, although I don't think it is as horrible an idea as some posts make it out to be..

Allowing experienced players to skip the first few levels of content won't make more people play the game...it will damage the game. It will do so both because it will let me start a bard above the minimum even though I've never played one and thus, make more crappy middle level groups. You might as well support the power levelling companies out there.

It will be even more harmful in that less groups at low levels will mean it will be more difficult for new players to join and enjoy the game.

[Dirac]

His statement is basically that he has spent a year+ playing the game so he is entitled to it. That is a false sense of entitlement.

It is your opinion that his entitlement is false. I agree that you should not be entitled to what he wants. But compare my statement, "While you can get xp rewards for new characters, I do not believe new characters should get xp or favor bonuses. The reasons for this are ..." to your first line of your post.

The only correlation I drew between him and my previous work is that MANY people feel they are entitled to things they are not. In my current work I deal with PHDs that each believe that they personally are more important than the other PHD asking for help with their software, or that I should bend our policy and rules because they need this report for court in an hour and didn't bother to try and create it until now when they found out their database had been removed by their network admin so the software won't run.

I'm with you, and believe that is all your are trying to do, but read what you are saying in context of your reply to this one person. You can't help but think you are drawing the comparison.

I have little sympathy for those that feel they are entitled to something special for all the work they have done enjoying themselves on a fun hobby all year. Shouldn't they be thanking Turbine for providing this service instead?

Think about what that means. You have little sympathy. That is exactly what is coming through in the post that I mentioned. Sticking with explaining why the idea is not good, and refraining from expressing your disdain for their point of view is what I was getting at.

Nonetheless, I would think the context you provide just in this post is enough for people not to take you the wrong way. I was just expounding at what I was trying to say. No worries.

[Girevik]

Allowing experienced players to skip the first few levels of content won't make more people play the game...it will damage the game.

The horse has already left the barn as far as the 1750 favor and 32-point builds, but allowing experienced players to skip the first X levels would have much less impact on the perceived disadvantage to new players.

For one thing, it has a successful precedent. DAoC has (had) a level cap of 50. Once your first character hit 50 on any server, you could then create level 20 characters (actually, you still created level 1's, but you could use a "/level 20" command to give them the experience to hit level 20) on any server.

Sure, that made the under-level 20 hunting areas fairly thinly populated, but once a new player achieved level 20 they achieved parity with the characters around them.

It did not hurt the game and no one ever griped about this on the DAoC forums, unlike the 32-point builds (which are advantages given to one character based on the achievements of another).

The game will be "hurt" a lot less if 2500 favor provides you the ability to use "/level 4" in the Harbor than if it provides you with 36 point builds.

[captain1z]

firstly.......

-I did not read the thread beyond the OP and 1-2 replies

- I will assume that the usual replies were made

- I dont think I want to read the whole thing or that I need too..base on priors


secondly..........

- I actually like the idea

- reminds me of the legacy system from another game....next character inherits some XP and items/weapons from previous because they are linked in some way (karma or blood)

- you could potentially start out at level 3 and twinked. I would like that and seeing as It only takes me 3 hrs to get to 3rd level anyway it wouldnt matter all that much, just saves me 3 hrs and another round of goodblades and such.

In response to Dingo123 's OP.............wait 4 it..........wait 4 it

/agree (puts on flame retardent jammies)


*please dont hurt me*

[Ghoste]

it will come to a point where you need total favor for something they put into the game, like half-orcs.

Drow ecl +2 - favor: 400
Half-orc: elc 0 - favor 2000+ ????
I dont think so.

I do agree though that there will likely be very appealing rewards for higher and higher favor, but I doubt it will be something like access to standard classes or ecl 0 races.

[Arlith]

For one thing, it has a successful precedent. DAoC has (had) a level cap of 50. Once your first character hit 50 on any server, you could then create level 20 characters (actually, you still created level 1's, but you could use a "/level 20" command to give them the experience to hit level 20) on any server.

Sure, that made the under-level 20 hunting areas fairly thinly populated, but once a new player achieved level 20 they achieved parity with the characters around them.

But this is not DAoC. I have never played it. I looked it up on Google, and if the info I read is correct they have more people on one server than DDO total (which indicates that it is either so much better than DDO that we should all play that and DDO be damned, or that it is so easy that everyone that tries it beats the game (disclaimer, my own HO and not necessarily the opinion of Turbine or other DDO players). Which means that people hitting level X right off the bat could have a greater impact on the 1-3's than it does on DAoC. I can see the arguments now, "All you power gamers start off at level X and never help us new level 1-3's! Elitist pr#$%s!!!!"

[nbhs275]

can we get saome sort of rule instatuted where after 5 horrible idea threads that get locked you can no longer post threads?

No. Because it would catter to the high end player. And wouldnt help the little guy. The person you pretend your trying to help.

If i can get to 14 in a week, then i can do it in 5 when i get to start at level six. But that level 6 newb finds out he gimped his sorcerer with 18 intel, he does the same thing and comes out level 2.

So without further detail.. NO..Just No.

[DrAwkward]

Actually, this is an idea from the old old bbs mud game MajorMUD and it was a REALLY nice feature that I've missed ever since.

It meant that even if you took a dive, you would still come back with a measure of the power you had before.

It worked very well.

Its also an idea in accordance with tabletop D&D these days. If your character perma-dies in PnP you don't start over from first level -- you bring in a new character thats appropriate level for the party.

It doesn't fly in current MMO practices because it bypasses the requirement to beat the lowbie content to death. I think it might work in DDO because:
a) DDO is already "not like other MMOs"
b) Its closer in spirit to tabletop gaming
c) We still have favor grinding to keep us doing the lowbie quests.

The only reasons I can see for us to still start over fresh are:
a) Permadeath players probably don't want to keep any XP
b) It would theoretically reduce the number of first level characters for newbies to group with.

To mitigate a), we can have keeping XP as just an option - maybe you have to hand Fred your Brain (and a Superflurious Shard, and a bazilllion Gold) and say "eat half, give the rest to my next of kin."

To Mitigate b) ... well. How many of us really group with noobs when we start over? How many of our re-rolls are first level for more than 45 minutes?

Hmm.. not used to posting in these contraversial threads... Is it mandatory I insult someone?

[Shamguard]

Actualy Dingo has a resonable idea here.

Personaly I'm tired of running the low level stuff every time I start a new character and would like some way of starting a character at a higher level.

We do it all the time in PnP games the DMG even has rules for starting higher level characters. It allows you to bring a new character in to an existing group near the current level of the party. That way you don't have a 1st level character in a 10th level group.

We already have the shortcut from the noob harbor now; so why not start a character at say level 5 or 6. This wouldn't be a game breaker since it would just allow an existing player to create a new character at a higher level.

Actualy by basing it on a percentage of the XP the character you deleted had would be fair. I would say 30-50% at most or about half the level of the character you just deleted.

The character would start with no money or equipment (so what we all twink anyway) and I would even give them zero favor though I wouldn't be against giving them credit for all the level 1-3 quest on solo/normal if the previous character had at lest done them at that level.

There is nothing game breaking or unbalancing to this since you are deleting a higher level character and starting a new lower level character, of a different class granted and I can see some issues with this, but once again nothing that really breaks the game.

This is something that could be tied to favor or just given as a new perk for the game since to use it you'd have to play enough to have the XP to transfer. Even setting a minimum XP amount so you have to delete at least a level 9 or 10 character before you got this.

Just some random thoughs, but people just because you don't like what someone has said in the past. Think about what he is saying before you get out the matches.

[Rragnaar]

Wow, you guys are hard on Dingo. Regardless of whether or not you like his ideas, atleast he is presenting constructive ideas.

Do you not read the ideas? They are nowhere near constructive, but rather they are very destructive ideas.

If the ideas from any of his posts were introduced into the game, it would cause a cataclysmic collapse of the game itself. You would watch more than 2/3 of the population from each server say "To Heck with this game, they are destroying it on purpose." Then Turbine would lose a lot of money causing them to shut down the servers due to a lack of funding for the deseigners and we all would be stuck going to other games for MMO enjoyment.


Some ideas, like he stated, are from MUD's that he played on. Well obviously the ideas failed, as nobody plays most of these anymore. Most of the people maintaining the servers for these gave up due to a lack of profitability for those games. While they were fun at first, they were very limited due to being strictly text based.

If he doesn't want the criticism, he shouldn't make the posts. If you are not hard on someone for making idiotic posts, how will they ever learn? Though, that statement requires that the OP learns from his mistakes and the criticism, which by the amount of posts that he makes that are absurd, he obviously does not learn.

[Arnya]

The hardest thing to explain, and to appreciate is the meaning of 'experience'

By spending time at a certain level you learn things.

Experience points reflect this. When you have enough experience at the current class level, you get to advance and gain more skills, building on the skills you should have mastered at the previous level.

I know this isn't perfect because we don't have a DM that decides whether or not you are 'good enough' to advance, we have XP doled out on a quest-completion basis.

But the practical upshot is this: as you level, you learn how to play your class and how to interact with a group of adventurers ie: sharing experiences.

This is the nature of D&D and bypassing any of this is not in D&D spirit.

My opinion would be that if a new player could start at level 1 or 14 she would generally choose lvl14 to see where a built-up character would end up. In MMOs this is bad.

There needs to be that anticipation of the next level or skill increase with no definitive endgame in sight.

This, I believe, is why Dingo is getting flamed by myself and others - Walk a mile in your character's shoes and learn her, love her, then if you must, reroll her better. That's D&D.

[nbhs275]

Actualy Dingo has a resonable idea here.

Personaly I'm tired of running the low level stuff every time I start a new character and would like some way of starting a character at a higher level.

We do it all the time in PnP games the DMG even has rules for starting higher level characters. It allows you to bring a new character in to an existing group near the current level of the party. That way you don't have a 1st level character in a 10th level group.

We already have the shortcut from the noob harbor now; so why not start a character at say level 5 or 6. This wouldn't be a game breaker since it would just allow an existing player to create a new character at a higher level.

Actualy by basing it on a percentage of the XP the character you deleted had would be fair. I would say 30-50% at most or about half the level of the character you just deleted.

The character would start with no money or equipment (so what we all twink anyway) and I would even give them zero favor though I wouldn't be against giving them credit for all the level 1-3 quest on solo/normal if the previous character had at lest done them at that level.

There is nothing game breaking or unbalancing to this since you are deleting a higher level character and starting a new lower level character, of a different class granted and I can see some issues with this, but once again nothing that really breaks the game.

This is something that could be tied to favor or just given as a new perk for the game since to use it you'd have to play enough to have the XP to transfer. Even setting a minimum XP amount so you have to delete at least a level 9 or 10 character before you got this.

Just some random thoughs, but people just because you don't like what someone has said in the past. Think about what he is saying before you get out the matches.

Throw enough **** and something will stick. Its not a horrible idea, but implementing it fairly and without a risk for exteme exploitation just isnt worth the time and effort. Expecially with what i consider a rather low benefit. And there is always the fact that no one would every play lowbies other then newbs. And then newbs wouldnt get anyone helping them to learn, and didnt you think newbs need some sort of program to help them? Seems conterproductive to one of your other goals.

[captain1z]

The hardest thing to explain, and to appreciate is the meaning of 'experience'

By spending time at a certain level you learn things.

Experience points reflect this. When you have enough experience at the current class level, you get to advance and gain more skills, building on the skills you should have mastered at the previous level.

I know this isn't perfect because we don't have a DM that decides whether or not you are 'good enough' to advance, we have XP doled out on a quest-completion basis.

But the practical upshot is this: as you level, you learn how to play your class and how to interact with a group of adventurers ie: sharing experiences.

This is the nature of D&D and bypassing any of this is not in D&D spirit.

My opinion would be that if a new player could start at level 1 or 14 she would generally choose lvl14 to see where a built-up character would end up. In MMOs this is bad.

There needs to be that anticipation of the next level or skill increase with no definitive endgame in sight.

This, I believe, is why Dingo is getting flamed by myself and others - Walk a mile in your character's shoes and learn her, love her, then if you must, reroll her better. That's D&D.

reason why I dont think you would miss the leveling play experience is because anyone who gets this perk as a reward has already leveled almost 100 characters and knows his/her role in a party...so I dont think you would be missing much if anything at all.