My bard woes

[Mercules]

Bards aren't especially effective against the undead... neither are rogues... neither are clerics, strangely...

Searing Light - Blade Barrier(affects even Incorporeal) - Cure X Wounds. All very effective against Undead, I could go into even more spells, but there isn't a need. Turn Undead(which should be the tool Cleric's pull out) isn't that effective due to a fluke in the game.

[joracie]

Ok, I have yet to finish writing the whole thing yet, But you people who are A: saying bards are very adaptable against undead are correct, Again I didn't say what I meant there and B: that those many examples I put down have nothing to do with it, Which is both true and not true.

I'm going to try and explain this. In all of those examples, I showed how a class could fail to do a certain role, Such as CC debuffing or damage, And fall into another role, Which my bard is perfectly able to to. But the other classes all had a way to fulfill the same role in the same way. They could pick other spells or other weapons.

A bard lacks this ability. I could drop to pure debuff or buff instead of the combination I use, But unlike other classes I could not simply change my style of doing that role to continue it, Because bards lack a crowd control spell against undead, We simply only have debuffs and light damage spells.

The enchantments that would allow me to fascinate undead, Are a closer step to this, So I believe the devs saw this. The problem is it still is weaker then other classes becuase it is having to adapt by using a feat with a heavy cost enchantment to take over a low level spell.

For other mobs like this, Such as spiders, This is not a big deal, becuase they are rare. But there are so many undead it is more severe.

I realize undead are very annoying to other classes. But all other classes can adapt to fulfill the same role in the same way, Where a bard can only adapt to fulfill a different role in the same way or the same role in a different way.

Now if they added enchantments, undead minds: your knowledge of the undead allows you enchantments to affect undead at a 20/25/30 percent length. I would even be happy with something along those lines.

but an expensive enchantment that allows a feat to take the role of a spell is not the same as a different spell taking the role of a spell or a different weapon taking the same roll as a weapon.

Anyways I hope to finish rewriting my argument sometimes tonight.

[Freeman]

Explaining the same thing repeatedly won't make others agree it is a needed change. People aren't disagreeing with you because they misunderstand you.

No class can fulfill every role. There are several types of opponents that melee fighters are not able to do nearly as well as a spellcaster against. These include air elementals, vampires, and anything with high DR that can't be bypassed. Even as early as the end boss of STK, there are some enemies that it is much easier to let a wizard or sorc deal with. Should fighters be given abilities to make them more effective against these creatures?

On the opposite side, there are several creatures, such as golems, marilith, or anything with high spell resistance, that casters have a much harder time dealing with than melee fighters. If their spells aren't effective, should the be given some other ability that works better against those creatures?

Rogues lose a large part of their attack damage against undead. Are you suggesting they create a rogue enhancement line allowing a certain percentage of the sneak attack damage to effect undead, to allow them to continue to fulfill their role?

The answer you are looking for is contained in your last post. What do other classes do? "They could pick other spells or other weapons." As a bard, you have access to more spells and weapons than any other class in the game. Use scrolls, wands, or melee weapons. If the role you have designed for yourself isn't effective, then step out of it. Undead are not the only enemies your bard spells won't work against. You'll face the same problem with golems, red-named bosses, and oozes. Bards can adapt to any situation. The only question is whether or not the player can.

[joracie]

Explaining the same thing repeatedly won't make others agree it is a needed change. People aren't disagreeing with you because they misunderstand you.

I know what I am saying and you have yet to grasp what I am saying. I do not blame you though I sometimes have problems getting across what I'm saying.

No class can fulfill every role. There are several types of opponents that melee fighters are not able to do nearly as well as a spellcaster against. These include air elementals, vampires, and anything with high DR that can't be bypassed. Even as early as the end boss of STK, there are some enemies that it is much easier to let a wizard or sorc deal with. Should fighters be given abilities to make them more effective against these creatures?

On the opposite side, there are several creatures, such as golems, marilith, or anything with high spell resistance, that casters have a much harder time dealing with than melee fighters. If their spells aren't effective, should the be given some other ability that works better against those creatures?

My fighter can still damage the STK boss, More so if I get a weapon that works against him but even with out it I can hurt him. I believe acid spells works against golems as well. High SR mobs can still be beat by trying again or a non SR spell.

Rogues lose a large part of their attack damage against undead. Are you suggesting they create a rogue enhancement line allowing a certain percentage of the sneak attack damage to effect undead, to allow them to continue to fulfill their role?

A rouge can take a weapon and still hurt a undead. He will loose some of his damage, But he can still do it perfectly fine. Also I would be perfectly fine with a enchantment that lets you do some sneak attacks on undead, Or an item that lets you critical undead(hey we have a huge undead raid coming up,They might even put an item like that in there)

The answer you are looking for is contained in your last post. What do other classes do? "They could pick other spells or other weapons." As a bard, you have access to more spells and weapons than any other class in the game. Use scrolls, wands, or melee weapons. If the role you have designed for yourself isn't effective, then step out of it. Undead are not the only enemies your bard spells won't work against. You'll face the same problem with golems, red-named bosses, and oozes. Bards can adapt to any situation. The only question is whether or not the player can.

I will write down two points here.

1: many many many times I had agreed with you, my bard can easily fall into a buffing or debuffing role, Or could pick up a weapon and swing it. I could even try UMD wands. The fact remains unlike other classes one of my roles is completely removed with no way to return it. I have no crowd control spells that function on undead. I am saying a wizard who cannot CC an ooze can try direct damage or buff his party but he can also find a spell to CC the ooze. A sorc who cannot use her fire spells on a fire mephit can try and debuff it or CC it, or buff the party but she can also find a different damage spell.

2: I realize that there are other mobs, But red names are immune to just about anything but damage anyways, So we all loose it not just bards. Golems, oozes and vermin are also not nearly as common. I don't mind not being able to CC at all in one or two quests or not being able to CC at all on some uncommon mobs, But undead are probably either the most common mod, Or at least on top 5 list.

Another idea that came to me, Was that allowing intelligent undead to me affected by dance/hypno just like intelligent vermin are(hehehe hypnoing whisperdooms daughter and then dancing her is pretty funny looking) They would probably have good will saves, And only some undead would be like this. for the rest I could use halt scrolls, they don't work on intelligent undead though(a DC of what? about 12. Not even deleras on normal fails thoughts on a 2)

Anyways this will probably be my last post until tonight in this thread.

[Cyr]

most rangers, rogues, and heck even some gimp str. pali's? Each build has its weaknesses and stregnths. I always find that if I have a low str., kind of gimpy vs. undead/construct char that as a prerequisite for them I have to carry greater bane weapons for those creature types and smiters/disruptors. At low levels those toons must have holy or at least pure good bludening weapons also vs those over HP undead. I find that those types of toons for me are the biggest plat sinks, but they do pretty dang well in those quests when I tech them out right. Also, it sounds like your bard woes are for CC bards with low str. Warchanters rip through undead.

[Mercules]

1: many many many times I had agreed with you, my bard can easily fall into a buffing or debuffing role, Or could pick up a weapon and swing it. I could even try UMD wands. The fact remains unlike other classes one of my roles is completely removed with no way to return it. I have no crowd control spells that function on undead. I am saying a wizard who cannot CC an ooze can try direct damage or buff his party but he can also find a spell to CC the ooze. A sorc who cannot use her fire spells on a fire mephit can try and debuff it or CC it, or buff the party but she can also find a different damage spell.

And just like your examples you can use Sound Burst, or Shout to damage Undead. They have no resistances to either other than being immune to the stunning damage of Sound Burst.

My Sorcerer carries multiple types of CC half of which are usually unusable in any given situation. He has Halt Undead for Undead. Hypnotism for low Will saves. Web for low Ref saves.

Even in your example the Sorcerer goes from Nuking(fire damage) to CC or buffing which is EXACTLY what we have been telling you to do in reverse. You go from CC to Nuking Undead or buffing.

I am at a point where I am going to say, "If you don't like your choice of spells as a Bard.... Don't play a Bard... please don't alter the BALANCE on this class further." Bards are set up to do some CC, some buffing, some combat, some skill based things and such. Their weakness are things not affected by their range of spells and/or songs. That is it. DDO gave you an expensive way around that weakness, just like they did with healing for WF. Take it, or leave it... that is your choice.

[Memnir]

No - you could find options to use against undead. You just seem to be stuck in the mindset that you cannot. I and many others have presented them to you several times; and I won't do so again. If you don't want to listen to the advice presented and continue to insist, dispite repeated evidance to the contrary, that you are right... well, then that's not my problem.

The issue is not the Bard's spell table. The issue is not lack of Bard options. The issue is how you've build your Bard. And, I'd love to have a CC master with me in most quests in the game. Your build is, I'm sure, amazing to behold in those quests. BUT, there is a trade-off in most things - and your trade-off is being weak against undead. I'm sorry - but that is far from the game's fault.

[RichD]

Let me see if I can summarize the point you are making for clarity sake:

My bard has no CC spell he can take that is effective against undead.

Here's my short answer:

That's true. Accept that fact and move on.

Turbine didn't design these classes out of thin air, the Bard spell list comes from the 3rd Edition D&D ruleset. The class is designed around a concept, and the focus is effecting people through mind-control, generally through music. I can think of few things that would care less about music than undead - oh yeah, maybe mindless things such as vermin and oozes.

As many folks have pointed out, you do have a CC song (Music of the Dead) that is highly effective that you could take if you were that concerned about the problem.

If you think it is crucial to your character to have an undead CC spell, then you can always multiclass with Sorc and use your sorc spell-slots for such spells. Of course, however you split the levels you'll be giving up the highest-end capabilities of both classes. But that is the trade-off you make to have no 'weak' areas.

[joracie]

Ok...I know most of you guys don't seem to like me or my idea, But I promised to give you a revised idea tonight that hopefully will get my point across better. Well it has turned out to be a whole lot longer then I thought it would be. So I am gona post it tomorrow probably. I hope you can read it(It will be a long essay) and then comment on it.

[Memnir]

It's not a matter of not liking you. Please don't drag personal feelings into this. I don't know you - ergo I don't know if I like or dislike you. What I do know is that you've gotten lots of advice and chosen to blow it off. It makes no differance to me since advice is free.

What I do dislike is your suggestion that because you have not found a way to be effective vs. undead, changes to the Bard's spells should be undertaken. Your build choice is not indicative of all Bards - and every build will have pros and cons.

I'll look over your new post whenever you care to post it. What I cannot promise is that I'll react any differantly.

[joracie]

First. Did I ask for advice? am I looking for advice? and I am sorry I implied I am ineffective against undead despite the fact I have said many many times that yes I can just buff and debuff undead. I have said many many many times thats not my problem.

My problem is not that I am not effective against undead nor is it that I think bards should not be weak to undead.

[Memnir]

Did you ask - nope. But it is a free board, so it will be given regardless.

[joracie]

Then please do not use that in an argument against my idea.

[Memnir]

What - that you did not ask for advice? Okay, won't bring it up.

[Freeman]

First. Did I ask for advice? am I looking for advice? and I am sorry I implied I am ineffective against undead despite the fact I have said many many times that yes I can just buff and debuff undead.

Yes, you actually did ask for advice in your first post, particularly about what you could use to debuff undead. Several people answered that. Others suggested other things you could do other than debuff them. It is up to you rather or not you use those suggestions.

As stated above, this is not a personal issue. I simply don't like your idea, and I don't feel it is necessary. You said in your first post that you thought it was a good idea. Others have posted that they did not, and they have stated their reasons why. In a public forum, you are always going to get responses, positive or negative, when you post a new idea.

Oh, and I wouldn't recommend buffing the undead. It tends to irritate your party members, and the undead generally don't return the favor

[joracie]

And I said I have been following that advice.

Also can somebody tell me why undead are immune to slow? I cannot figure that out.

[TreknaQudane]

besides bards do get CC vs undead if you spend the AP

[Memnir]

besides bards do get CC vs undead if you spend the AP

No save & no spellpoint cost, either.

[joracie]

And a heavy AP cost with a long time to take affect in which you are are defenseless with a much shorter range then it should have and fascanate as a whole is incredibly weird. I can run around and get all the guys within 10 feet of me and still have three or four not be affected.

Besides that it is still not a spell and therefore when compared to other similar encounters is just not the same as other classes ability to combat their weaknesses.

The whole problem I see is undead having a complete immunity to a whole form of spells well no common monsters are immune to all a pallys meele or all a sorcs nuke spells or all a rouges damage or all a wizards CC.

And another question besides undead immunities to slow(which I still don't get >.<) shouldn't soundburst not work on undead becuase they are immune to stuns?

[Freeman]

Undead shouldn't be immune to Slow. Are they? I never used the spell because of the slow casting time. They do take the damage from Soundburst, Shout, and Greater Shout, but they are immune to the stun portion.

No monster is immune to all of a bard's abilities either. Just like a melee fighter, you can always swing a sword or fire a bow. And with the buffs and spells you gain access to as a bard, you can be very effective at combat, regardless of what your actual build is. The problem is that you are fixated on being able to hit undead creatures with CC spells. As a bard, you are given other abilities to compensate for areas where your spells may fall short. You are asking that your spell-casting abilities be increased without any corresponding decrease in your other abilities. The classes have different abilities and strengths. A weakness of the bard class is that many of their abilities do not work against mindless creatures, such as undead and constructs. Other classes have their own strengths and weaknesses. That is why the term "balanced group" exists in D&D.