Paladin based intimitank?

[spifflove]

Paladin is the undiscovered country for me. I have absolutely no picture of what a paladin can do beyond level 3.

So I have two questions:

1. Why go above level 3 (not taking fighter instead)

2. Is it possible to make a paladin based intimitank?

My paladin is level 3 with enough xp for level 4 and is awaiting your response.

[Blazer]

Paladin can make a decent intimitank, but there are two issues. One is that intimidate is a cross-class skill, so you'll be a bit behind an intimitank fighter who has 17 ranks vs your 8.5 ranks. Second, unless you're going dwarf, your AC may be a bit low to "tank" since you won't have access to Fighter's Armor Mastery.

[Borror0]

Paladin is the undiscovered country for me. I have absolutely no picture of what a paladin can do beyond level 3.

So I have two questions:

1. Why go above level 3 (not taking fighter instead)

2. Is it possible to make a paladin based intimitank?

My paladin is level 3 with enough xp for level 4 and is awaiting your response.

1. Well, paladins have obvious reasons to continue until lv 11. Resists and enhancements mainly.

2. Yes it is, starting with one fighter level and taking an other later would help you to get 17 ranks in intimidate. Then, as the cap is raised, go for 12 paladin/ 8 fighter. You could also go 7 paladin/ 7 fighter and aim for the same final 2 paladin/ 8 fighter.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

Dworkin's paladin guide thread also has a couple of different flavor intimitanks listed... Make sure you take a look at them before finalizing anything.

[QuantumFX]

If you're going to intimitank make sure you at least have intimidate as a class skill. (Usually by dipping 1 fighter or 2 rogue if going for an evasion tank.)

[bandyman1]

As was stated, take your fighter lvl at start. That way you can max intimidate. With a Paladin's higher Cha., you can get it really high. My guild leader has a pally-based intimatank he built like this and it is very effective. Don't worry about armor mastery for your AC, your aura will make up for it.
My own new pure paladin will have +4 arua, and is going to be using the daggertooth's belt. That's an AC boost equal to a dwarf fighter with both mastery lines maxed.

[Ralmeth]

It's very possible to make a Paladin based Intimitank...In fact that's exactly what I play and it works well. You'll definately want to grab at least 1 level of Fighter so that intimidate is a class skill. Dworkin has a really good Pally intimitank build, so I'd recommend basing your character off of that.

[spifflove]

Thank you for your responses. Does anyone have any specifics?

1. Why is level 7 a good breaking point?

2. Why is level 11 a good breaking point?

3. Does divine favor really justify the loss of fighter strength and greater weapon specialization?

After reviewing dworkins resource, there appears to be not much difference at all.

[Averroes]

Thank you for your responses. Does anyone have any specifics?

1. Why is level 7 a good breaking point?

2. Why is level 11 a good breaking point?

3. Does divine favor really justify the loss of fighter strength and greater weapon specialization?

After reviewing dworkins resource, there appears to be not much difference at all.

1. I'm not sure level 7 is a particularly good break point. It gets you +2/+2 divine favor (at 6), +2 aura enhancements (at 7), the 3rd level of action boosts (also at 7), and resist 20s with the few spellpoints you'll have at that level -- EDIT: no, you don't get 2nd level spells until pally 8, so scratch that last part.

2. Level 11 gets you resist 30s (and enough spellpoints to actually cast them sometimes), +3 aura enhancements, and 4th level boosts (at 10).

3. Divine favor goes up to +3/+3 at 9 -- equivalent to 2 strength, weapon focus and greater weapon focus, and weapon spec. As long as it lasts, anyway. Since you're likely to have at least 2 fighter levels (and therefore access to fighters' strength I), the max offense numbers are a wash. But of course the pally has to drop CE regularly to maintain his offense.


The numbers all work out to be very nearly the same regardless of whether you go 12f/2, 11f/3p, 11p/3f, or 7p/7f. The difference is that the mainly fighter builds will perform better when dispelled, and will likely have a slightly higher AC when grouped with a pally carrying all the aura enhancements. The primarily pally builds will be more self-sufficient (not dependent on wands of resist 7 and 11, for instance, able to self-heal effectively with multiple LOHs), but the primarily fighter builds will deal damage more consistently (as they won't have to cast divine favor and then turn CE back on).

It's also worth noting that the primarily pally version almost has to be a dwarf to get his AC high enough, which has consequences elsewhere. My old drow 12f/2p intimitank (from long before 32-point builds were available) sports 26 charisma and 30 UMD, which is pretty well impossible to do with a dwarf.

Hope that helps.

[spifflove]

Thank you for your detailed answer.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Thank you for your responses. Does anyone have any specifics?

1. Why is level 7 a good breaking point?

2. Why is level 11 a good breaking point?

3. Does divine favor really justify the loss of fighter strength and greater weapon specialization?

After reviewing dworkins resource, there appears to be not much difference at all.

Well, in all honesty, Level 7 isn't the best break point for Paladin, but it is a good on for a Fighter/Paladin Split.

Let me break it down:

Paladin Break Points:
Pal 1 - Paladin Aura (+1 AC, +1 Saves)
Pal 2 - Divine Grace (Cha Bonus to Saves), CHA +1
Pal 3 - Divine Health (Disease Immunity) & Fear Immunity
Pal 6 - CHA +2
Pal 7 - Resistance & Bulwark of Good 2
Pal 8 - Level 2 Spells
Pal 9 - Divine Favor Capped @ +3/+3
Pal 10 - CHA +3
Pal 11 - Resistance & Bulwark of Good 3, 30-point Resist Energy


Fighter Break Points (ignoring Fighter Bonus Feats)
Fgt 1 - Weapon/TS Proficiencies
Fgt 2 - STR +1
Fgt 3 - Fighter Armor Mastery & Tower Shield Mastery 1
Fgt 4 - Avail Feat: Weapon Specialization
Fgt 6 - STR +2
Fgt 7 - Fighter Armor Mastery & Tower Shield Mastery 2
Fgt 8 - Avail Feat: Greater Weapon Focus
Fgt 10 - STR +3
Fgt 11 - Fighter Armor Mastery & Tower Shield Mastery 3
Fgt 12 - Avail Feat: Greater Weapon Specialization

So, looking at that, the "really" important break points for Paladin are Pal 2, Pal 7, and Pal 11. Paladin 2 is used for a Paladin Splash for the Paladin base Aura and Divine Grace. Paladin 11 is the most popular mostly-Paladin build. Paladin 7 is a newer development, mostly for a Paladin/Fighter hybrid (DPS or Intimtanks), to leverage BoG/RoG 2 with the FAM/FTSM 2 Enhancements for MAX AC, or a Maximized Standing AC, with Divine Favor for DPS.

Averroes was right, don't discount the power of Divine Favor... while it can be dispelled, it gives the To-Hit Equivalaent of +2 STR & Weapon Focus & Greater Weapon Focus, and the Damage Equivalent of +2 STR & Weapon Specialization!

A lot of the "break point" depends on what you want your Paladin to do, and what items/tomes/equipment you have available. 7/7 Splits tend to be very demanding on items and tomes, so I don't recommend them for less experienced players.

But for overall survivablitly, utility (UMD), and decent DPS, I still think that 11 Pal / 2 Rog / 1 Fgt is the best overall build to go with (Holy Avenger template). Yes, I know that is a build that I have espoused a lot, and taken over ownership from Grenfell on, but having played one to 14, and a modified version (with Rogue skills) as well, I can vouch for the build.


@Osharan/Ralmeth/spifflove - Thanks for the kudos... that Guide has been a lot of work, and I'm glad that people are finding it useful.

[Gennerik]

I like how Paladin feels up to at least level 7, so my Paladin/Fighter/Rogue is 6/6/2 at the moment. I'm splitting the Paladin and Fighter levels evenly until I get to 18 when I'll keep Fighter at level 8 and go 9 Paladin and 3 Rogue. Of course the only reason this works for me is because I'm a Halfling. I'm debating taking some of the Dragonmarks, but not really sure about it, since so far I'm not really in need of them. I'm working on getting my AC set, but for now it's sitting at 43. The paladin levels really help in that saves and AC department, but having three classes does take it's toll. Dworkin of Amber pretty much put down most of the important points of each class, though he did miss the extra Lay on Hands at level 3 and at level 8 (and 13, but obviously that a bit further in the Paladin progression).

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

About Dragonmarks - I am most familair with the Human ones, as my Paladins have all been humans... but I can attest that the DragonMark of Passage line is one that definately should be considered, if you can make the feat room.

The Least Dragonmark of Passage gives +2 Balance, always useful for a melee-type, and 3x Expeditious Retreats/day, with duration in minutes equal to character level. 3x 14-minute ER's is very useful to help keep near the frontlines, and not requiring a Striding item, as most melee-paladins, and especially evasion paladins, are very tight on item-room.

The Lesser Dragonmark gives you one more ER clicky, but adds 2x Dimension Door clickies/rest. I can tell you that this can be very useful in certain quests. My Evasion Paladin carries DD scrolls on him at all times, because I don't have the Lesser Dragonmark yet (I'll take it at 15), and for certain quests, like VON 5, it is a HUGE timesaver. It can also be used for a hasty retreat from a potential party-wipe.

I don't know the other DragonMarks that well, but I would think that the Healing mark for Halflings (CLW/CSW/Heal) or the Shadow for Elves (Invis/Displacement/Shadow Walk) would be good candidates for Paladin types.