Dwarven Dual Axe Fighter/Barb

[Fallout]

With the new +5 Seeker +8, Maiming Heavy Pick that you can get with Mod 5, which also has a 19-20 crit range, you'd be foolish to go with Dwarven Axes over this Pick.

You get it from collecting Tome pieces in the pre-raid. You have a 15-20 crit range on a x4 weapon. The damage is pretty sick.

That is sick. **** I'm convinced. Going to try making a drow barb. Just when I just hit L14 on a TWF dorf fighter too.

[Maldini]

That is sick. **** I'm convinced. Going to try making a drow barb. Just when I just hit L14 on a TWF dorf fighter too.

Make a human, don't make a Drow. Or a WF. Drow don't get benefits for Heavy Picks.

Imagine Dual Wielding those Deathnips and getting over 200 points of damage on a crit with a 30% crit chance and 7 attacks in a chain...

[Scalion]

I don't have a 14 yet, so I haven't seen all the gear that is out there, but from what I have read about crits I don't see how you can get better than 19-20 on either a pick or an axe. Nothing that improves crit range has been stackable with anything else that I've seen so far.

Apparently I must be wrong.

If you were only looking at 19-20 crit range then I would think dual dwarven axes were the way to go because you aren't relying on crits for 90% of your damage... dwarf fighter specced axe would be 5-17 base damage (+2 specialization and +2 dwarf enhancement) while a heavy pick would be only 3-8 damage on a non crit. (of course I'm not factoring strength, or weapon quality because that applies to both weapons equally).

I definately see how a higher strength eventually makes picks better than axes for crits, but crits are not absolutely everything (though I can see where you are going if you can really get a 15-20 threat range on a x4 weapon).

[Fallout]

Make a human, don't make a Drow. Or a WF. Drow don't get benefits for Heavy Picks.

Imagine Dual Wielding those Deathnips and getting over 200 points of damage on a crit with a 30% crit chance and 7 attacks in a chain...

What does human get for heavy picks over drow?

[Maldini]

What does human get for heavy picks over drow?

They get an extra feat, no stat penalties and can boost any two stats +1 with enhancements. Nothing having to do with heavy picks, but I wouldn't go with a heavy pick using Drow. The penalty to Con isn't good for a barb.

[Maldini]

I don't have a 14 yet, so I haven't seen all the gear that is out there, but from what I have read about crits I don't see how you can get better than 19-20 on either a pick or an axe. Nothing that improves crit range has been stackable with anything else that I've seen so far.

Apparently I must be wrong.

If you were only looking at 19-20 crit range then I would think dual dwarven axes were the way to go because you aren't relying on crits for 90% of your damage... dwarf fighter specced axe would be 5-17 base damage (+2 specialization and +2 dwarf enhancement) while a heavy pick would be only 3-8 damage on a non crit. (of course I'm not factoring strength, or weapon quality because that applies to both weapons equally).

I definately see how a higher strength eventually makes picks better than axes for crits, but crits are not absolutely everything (though I can see where you are going if you can really get a 15-20 threat range on a x4 weapon).

Okay let's do this...

The Deathnip is a 19 - 20 Crit Range. With Improved Crit, that doubles it to 17 - 20. A Level 14 Barb can get that down to 15 - 20 x4 or a 30% crit chance.

Dwarven Axes are a 20 Crit Range. With Improved Crit, that doubles it to 19 - 20. A Level 14 Barb can get that down to 17 - 20 x3 or a 20% crit chance.

The pick that I'm referring to is a named pick that is a weapon choice from the Tome collectible side quest in Mod 5. It has Seeker +8 with a x4 is 32 points of extra damage on a crit. A Dwarven Axe user with a Bloodstone Trinket that has Seeker +6 would only get +18 damage on a crit because Dwarven Axes are x3.

On top of that, this pick has Maiming on it, and for a x4 multiplier weapon that's an extra 1d6 over a x3 weapon like a Dwarven Axe.

So you see this pick blows any Dwarven Axe out of the water as far as damage goes.

For plain picks that have bursting and other effects on it, it's far better than the Dwarven Axe because the x4 multiplier adds even more damage on a crit.

Check out the description of an Axiomatic Burst weapon to see what I mean.

[spifflove]

Make a human, don't make a Drow. Or a WF. Drow don't get benefits for Heavy Picks.

Imagine Dual Wielding those Deathnips and getting over 200 points of damage on a crit with a 30% crit chance and 7 attacks in a chain...

They do get synergy with any wounding/puncturing rapiers they happen to find d/t piercing line. My elf barbarian will be happy to get that pick.

Of course the question is, why aren't you preaching holding out for half orcs?

[Maldini]

They do get synergy with any wounding/puncturing rapiers they happen to find d/t piercing line. My elf barbarian will be happy to get that pick.

Of course the question is, why aren't you preaching holding out for half orcs?

Because I don't feel like waiting another 6 months. Also, if I'm using picks I'm using the Deathnip, not wounding of puncturing.

If I wanted to do stat damage all the time, I'd be a ranger or an arcane.

I want the big damage numbers baby.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I think the maiming is 3D6 on a x4 crit multiplier Mal...isnt it?

Nm, misread.
You said it was an EXTRA 1D6 over the x3 critter...my bad.

[Maldini]

I think the maiming is 3D6 on a x4 crit multiplier Mal...isnt it?

Nm, misread.
You said it was an EXTRA 1D6 over the x3 critter...my bad.

Yeah and Bursting effects too:

Holy Burst has no difference.

Axiomatic and Anarchic Burst give you an extra 2d6 I think.

Elemental Burst give you an extra 1d10 I think on a x4 Crit.

But I could be wrong...

[Mad_Bombardier]

Yeah and Bursting effects too:

Holy Burst has no difference.

Axiomatic and Anarchic Burst give you an extra 2d6 I think.

Elemental Burst give you an extra 1d10 I think on a x4 Crit.

But I could be wrong...

Holy Burst has the same addition as Axiomatic/Anarchic, it's just listed incorrectly. The difference between all alignment bursts is 1d6. x2= +3d6, x3= +4d6, x4= +5d6.

[Maldini]

Holy Burst has the same addition as Axiomatic/Anarchic, it's just listed incorrectly. The difference between all alignment bursts is 1d6. x2= +3d6, x3= +4d6, x4= +5d6.

There you go.

[spifflove]

Because I don't feel like waiting another 6 months. Also, if I'm using picks I'm using the Deathnip, not wounding of puncturing.

If I wanted to do stat damage all the time, I'd be a ranger or an arcane.

I want the big damage numbers baby.

Or rogue. All I am saying is that it allows more options on the same build. Because gear is luck dependent.

Anyway strength is the way to go with rangers. The Tempest ranger went the way of the Illuminati.

[Fallout]

Or rogue. All I am saying is that it allows more options on the same build. Because gear is luck dependent.

Anyway strength is the way to go with rangers. The Tempest ranger went the way of the Illuminati.

The problem with rogue is that its great that someone has agro and mob and can backstab for big numbers. But if the mob focuses on you, lose the big backstab numbers.

Are they really putting in half-orcs etc, or just speculation? Grinding the same lowbie levels again is dreadfully boring.

[Scalion]

Okay let's do this...

The Deathnip is a 19 - 20 Crit Range. With Improved Crit, that doubles it to 17 - 20. A Level 14 Barb can get that down to 15 - 20 x4 or a 30% crit chance.

Dwarven Axes are a 20 Crit Range. With Improved Crit, that doubles it to 19 - 20. A Level 14 Barb can get that down to 17 - 20 x3 or a 20% crit chance.

The pick that I'm referring to is a named pick that is a weapon choice from the Tome collectible side quest in Mod 5. It has Seeker +8 with a x4 is 32 points of extra damage on a crit. A Dwarven Axe user with a Bloodstone Trinket that has Seeker +6 would only get +18 damage on a crit because Dwarven Axes are x3.

On top of that, this pick has Maiming on it, and for a x4 multiplier weapon that's an extra 1d6 over a x3 weapon like a Dwarven Axe.

So you see this pick blows any Dwarven Axe out of the water as far as damage goes.

For plain picks that have bursting and other effects on it, it's far better than the Dwarven Axe because the x4 multiplier adds even more damage on a crit.

Check out the description of an Axiomatic Burst weapon to see what I mean.

Ok, so I can definately see how there is one weapon in the game that would make that particular pick the obvious choice over axes if the threat range of that particular weapon stacks with the improved crit feat.

However for every other comparison.....

A dwarf fighter that focuses on big + to hit numbers will not rely on crits for their damage. Yes, 10% of the time the damage of a pick user would beat the damage of the axe user, but the other 90% of the time the axe damage would be far ahead of the pick damage.

If you rely on either hold type spells or crits with seeker type effects to land your attacks, I can see your point, but a well built fighter should be able to hit much more often than just on criticals.

[Maldini]

Ok, so I can definately see how there is one weapon in the game that would make that particular pick the obvious choice over axes if the threat range of that particular weapon stacks with the improved crit feat.

However for every other comparison.....

A dwarf fighter that focuses on big + to hit numbers will not rely on crits for their damage. Yes, 10% of the time the damage of a pick user would beat the damage of the axe user, but the other 90% of the time the axe damage would be far ahead of the pick damage.

If you rely on either hold type spells or crits with seeker type effects to land your attacks, I can see your point, but a well built fighter should be able to hit much more often than just on criticals.

The reason why barbs kill fast period is because of crits. That has been the way of the barb since day 1. The damage of the dwarven axe is minimal over the heavy pick on not crits, and the extra damage on crits overtakes that difference.

With any weapon a barb is going to hit hard on a non-crit because of base numbers. The extra crits make the new pick far outdamage any dwarven axe. Plus normal picks do more damage on bursts and crits, etc.

So not factoring in Crits into this discussion is like going to do number 2 and not use toilet paper afterwards...it's ludicrous.

[Scalion]

The reason why barbs kill fast period is because of crits. That has been the way of the barb since day 1. The damage of the dwarven axe is minimal over the heavy pick on not crits, and the extra damage on crits overtakes that difference.

With any weapon a barb is going to hit hard on a non-crit because of base numbers. The extra crits make the new pick far outdamage any dwarven axe. Plus normal picks do more damage on bursts and crits, etc.

So not factoring in Crits into this discussion is like going to do number 2 and not use toilet paper afterwards...it's ludicrous.

But isn't this post about a two weapon fighter build?

Barbarians going two weapons is kinda silly, they don't have the feats for it and get more benefit from two handed weapons. Fighters have feats to spend on all the two weapon feats, plus greater focus/specialization, and still have feats to spare.

Fighters do not need to rely on crits for their damage. If I had to sum up the difference between fighter damage and barbarian damage, I would say that fighters hit a lot more but not quite as hard while barbarians hit harder. A duel wielding barb just doesn't make sense to me.

[spifflove]

The problem with rogue is that its great that someone has agro and mob and can backstab for big numbers. But if the mob focuses on you, lose the big backstab numbers.

Are they really putting in half-orcs etc, or just speculation? Grinding the same lowbie levels again is dreadfully boring.

You will still puncture them to death. There are other ways to keep your sneak attack bonus too but a two weapon rogue can't afford the feats. My point was a rogue trumps a ranger dex monkey because of the extra dps.

A human will enjoy enhancement bonuses to strength and con, and an extra feat over an elf, with no stat buy enhancement. Elves will have better standing saves vs enchantment, be able to use rapiers with larger crit ranges, and have a negligible one ac bonus.

Halfings will enjoy a 2 con bonus over humans at a loss of one feat and about 7 hp dps per round.

Dorfs will remain con kings while losing one point in strength and one enhancement vs the human. Their saves are overpowered. It would be amusing if they had to make a UMD check to use any magic item.

Half orcs will dominant fighters, rangers, and barbarians and may be worth even a 6 month wait for those of you with other characters to level. (although dorfs may still be superior d/t better hp and rage length)

[spifflove]

I have one question though:

Won't future mobs all be wearing heavy fort items making critting, backstabbing, and puncturing irrelevant altogether?

[Maldini]

I have one question though:

Won't future mobs all be wearing heavy fort items making critting, backstabbing, and puncturing irrelevant altogether?

What if they come out with items that reduce Fortification?

Touche spiff, touche.