Dwarven Dual Axe Fighter/Barb

[ErgonomicCat]

Since the fighter forums were silent on the issue....

I can't imagine it's not a good build.

People tell me it's not.

But I wanna see for myself.

So I'm working on a dwarven TWF.

Main Hand, Dwarven Axe, off hand, Hand Axe.

1d10/1d6 damage (on par with Bastard sword/short sword, lose a human feat, gain EWP (Dwarven Axe)).

And then do the dwarven axe bonii.

Based on the char planner, I came up with this:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.65
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Bjornen Bjornenson
Level 14 Chaotic Good Dwarf Male
(12 Fighter \ 2 Barbarian) 
Hit Points: 270
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 6
Will: 3

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 14)
Strength             16                    22
Dexterity            15                    19 (+4 dex item)
Constitution         17                    20
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              6                     6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 14)
Balance               4                     9
Bluff                -2                    -2
Concentration         3                     5
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -2                    -2
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  2                     2
Intimidate           -2                    -2
Jump                  7                    12
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently         2                     2
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     2
Spot                 -1                    -1
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                4                    10
Use Magic Device      0                     6

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I

Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I

Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I

Level 5 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I

Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II

Level 7 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II

Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) ITWF
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II

Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) GTWF
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II

Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Sunder
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery II

Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III

Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III

At the end of the day, I have +22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12 attacks (with the TWF penalty) base.

With an Axe, I get +8 damage (from Dwarven + IWS) and +4 to hit (From Dwarven + IWF).

So assuming a +5 weapon in each hand at level 14, that's +31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21 for 1d10+19 main hand and 1d6+16 off hand.

I can wear Mithril Full Plate and get all my dex bonus.

That seems pretty nice.

Is my math off?

Will I regret my enhancements?

Any comments?

[Scalion]

You need 17 dex to take all the two weapon fighting feats. Items would not work.

With 15 starting Dex you'll either need to spend level 4/8/12 stat increases or get tomes to get the 17 dex you'll need for all two weapon fighting feats.

You probably know this already and I'm just not familiar with the method you plan on using to get the 17 dex, but I thought I'd point it out just in case.


I don't know a lot about end game play so I can't really advise you about anything else.

[tihocan]

Out of curiosity, what's the point of the 2 levels of barb?
Otherwise, besides the dex issue, I would rather take stunning blow or Combat expertise + improved trip before improved sunder.

[ErgonomicCat]

Out of curiosity, what's the point of the 2 levels of barb?
Otherwise, besides the dex issue, I would rather take stunning blow or Combat expertise + improved trip before improved sunder.

Rage, mostly.

I didn't see anything that made fighter 14 better than fighter 12 besides a feat. Barb 2 gets me rage, extra rage and extended rage, more HP, much better skills and the DR 6 action boost.

And for dex, I didn't know that - I'm only about a month in to DDO at this point.

So put my stat increases to dex instead, that's doable.

[Gulva]

I've got a 12 fighter / 2 barb... I don't really use rage much at all... granted I only get 2 and they don't last very long, but even still I only use them if I'm having trouble hitting something. But with 2 barb levels you get Action Boost: Sprint, the DR 6 Boost, extra hp and the +1 con enhancement, so that alone is well worth losing 1 feat imo.

[ErgonomicCat]

I've got a 12 fighter / 2 barb... I don't really use rage much at all... granted I only get 2 and they don't last very long, but even still I only use them if I'm having trouble hitting something. But with 2 barb levels you get Action Boost: Sprint, the DR 6 Boost, extra hp and the +1 con enhancement, so that alone is well worth losing 1 feat imo.

That was my thought too. Fighter enhancements seemed to cap at 11, so 12-14 were a waste. I'm not actually sure I wouldn't be better off at Barb 4/fighter 10 - none of my enhancements require more than 10 levels of fighter. So should drop another feat for two more levels of barb, which would be trap sense (not so much) and another rage, but would allow me to pick up barb. toughness, more hp again, and better skills?

[Maldini]

Since the fighter forums were silent on the issue....

I can't imagine it's not a good build.

People tell me it's not.

But I wanna see for myself.

So I'm working on a dwarven TWF.

Main Hand, Dwarven Axe, off hand, Hand Axe.

1d10/1d6 damage (on par with Bastard sword/short sword, lose a human feat, gain EWP (Dwarven Axe)).

And then do the dwarven axe bonii.

Based on the char planner, I came up with this:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.65
DDO Character Planner Home Page
 
Bjornen Bjornenson
Level 14 Chaotic Good Dwarf Male
(12 Fighter \ 2 Barbarian) 
Hit Points: 270
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 6
Will: 3
 
                Starting          Feat/Enhancement
               Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 14)
Strength             16                    22
Dexterity            15                    19 (+4 dex item)
Constitution         17                    20
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              6                     6
 
                Starting          Feat/Enhancement
               Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 14)
Balance               4                     9
Bluff                -2                    -2
Concentration         3                     5
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -2                    -2
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  2                     2
Intimidate           -2                    -2
Jump                  7                    12
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently         2                     2
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     2
Spot                 -1                    -1
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                4                    10
Use Magic Device      0                     6
 
Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
 
Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
 
Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
 
Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
 
Level 5 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
 
Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II
 
Level 7 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
 
Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
 
Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) ITWF
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
 
Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) GTWF
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
 
Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
 
Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Sunder
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery II
 
Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
 
Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III

At the end of the day, I have +22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12 attacks (with the TWF penalty) base.

With an Axe, I get +8 damage (from Dwarven + IWS) and +4 to hit (From Dwarven + IWF).

So assuming a +5 weapon in each hand at level 14, that's +31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21 for 1d10+19 main hand and 1d6+16 off hand.

I can wear Mithril Full Plate and get all my dex bonus.

That seems pretty nice.

Is my math off?

Will I regret my enhancements?

Any comments?

Dual Wield Heavy Picks or nothing at all. Dwarven Axes are okay, but if you're going with a 20 x3 weapon, you might as well go with a 20 x4 weapon. Spec in piercing weapons so that you'll have 17 - 20 x4 Crit Range on Heavy Picks. And your damage at Level 14 with good gear will be in the 150+ range with special effects on crits.

The huge crit range is of course for pure barbarians. I wouldn't even go multiclassed fighter. Go pure Barb with a 16 +1 Tome = 17 Dex at creation or 17 Dex to start.

[ErgonomicCat]

Dual Wield Heavy Picks or nothing at all. Dwarven Axes are okay, but if you're going with a 20 x3 weapon, you might as well go with a 20 x4 weapon. Spec in piercing weapons so that you'll have 17 - 20 x4 Crit Range on Heavy Picks. And your damage at Level 14 with good gear will be in the 150+ range with special effects on crits.

The huge crit range is of course for pure barbarians. I wouldn't even go multiclassed fighter. Go pure Barb with a 16 +1 Tome = 17 Dex at creation or 17 Dex to start.

My current plan is related to that - I found a pick/hammer build out there that seems very nice at the high end, but takes a while to get rolling.

So my idea is Waraxe/handaxe for a good while, when the d10 damage and the bonus dwarven damage makes a difference. Once I hit higher end (probably 8, when I can get imp crit), I'll swap over.

[Maldini]

My current plan is related to that - I found a pick/hammer build out there that seems very nice at the high end, but takes a while to get rolling.

So my idea is Waraxe/handaxe for a good while, when the d10 damage and the bonus dwarven damage makes a difference. Once I hit higher end (probably 8, when I can get imp crit), I'll swap over.

Yeah but the x4 Crit makes a huge difference, especially when your damage bonus is high.

There's not much to do though. You could make a dual-wielding human and take the dex enhancements. Start off with an 18 str, 16 Dex, 14 Con and eat a +1 Tome. When Superior Two-Handed Fighting comes out you'll just have to find a +3 Tome to fill the 19 Dex requirement. But then all you have to do is max out Str, Dex and Con and take the TWF feats all the way, and a Toughness Feat or the TWF Defense feat, etc. It's up to preference.

[Quartzite]

Picks usually do less damage than Dwarven Axes, even on crittable targets. Picks do get better as your target gets harder and harder to hit, but overall 2 Dwarven Axes is best DPS combo there is. It does cost Enhancements, it does mean going a Dwarf. But in most situations, dual Dwarven Axes maxed for damage will beat dual Heavy Picks. d6 (avg 3.5, max 6) vs d10+2 (avg 7.5, max 12) makes a big difference. As Str values go higher and higher the Heavy Pick gets better and better (the Pick also works better with Stunning Blow), but for non-crittable sustained DPS that is able to hit more often, Dwarvens Axes (in both hands) are still king.

By 20 if enhancements and gear continues the way it has been, dual Picks will probably be better for Dwarves. But who knows, Turbine might add a race specific crit-based Axe-Enhancement.

[Maldini]

Picks usually do less damage than Dwarven Axes, even on crittable targets. Picks do get better as your target gets harder and harder to hit, but overall 2 Dwarven Axes is best DPS combo there is. It does cost Enhancements, it does mean going a Dwarf. But in most situations, dual Dwarven Axes maxed for damage will beat dual Heavy Picks. d6 (avg 3.5, max 6) vs d10+2 (avg 7.5, max 12) makes a big difference. As Str values go higher and higher the Heavy Pick gets better and better (the Pick also works better with Stunning Blow), but for non-crittable sustained DPS that is able to hit more often, Dwarvens Axes (in both hands) are still king.

By 20 if enhancements and gear continues the way it has been, dual Picks will probably be better for Dwarves. But who knows, Turbine might add a race specific crit-based Axe-Enhancement.

So let's say for arguments sake that you're comparing a non-dwarf build here, and you're buffed up to a 40 Damage Bonus. With the pick your average crit will be about 43.5x4 = 174 whereas with the Dwarven Axe your average crit will about 45x3 = 135. So now with a Dwarf you're going to get 47.5x3 = 142.5 on a Crit. Your crit ranges are the same, so the heavy picks are going to do much more damage.

So if you're thinking that a 4 point damage bonus on a dwarf is going to make a difference over the lifetime of a character, then yeah you could say that, but when you look at a slice of a character like in a quest or against a boss mob or any mob, the Pick is going to win because it's going to do the serious damage numbers and kill the mob much quicker.

That's what anyone with sense thinks about when picking weapons. What's going to kill something the fastest? That's the pick over the dwarven axe with the same crit range.

[Maldini]

Picks really shine above Dwarven Axes when it comes to Bursters. An Axiomatic Burst Heavy Pick does an extra 7d6 damage on a crit. An Axiomatic Burst Heavy Pick of Maiming does an extra 10d6 damage on a crit because of the x4 multiplier. So that leaves any damage dice difference between the pick and the dwarven axe in the dust.

Note that an Anarchic Burst Heavy Pick of Maiming could be pretty nasty on the Reaver. The Axiomatic Burst of Maiming or of Pure Good is pretty good against the Dragons too.

[nbhs275]

gotta agree with mal. My pick barb is level 9 and outkilling everything. Crits can hit 160+ easy(+1 icy burst heavy pick of maiming is great for fire ellies)

[spifflove]

Dorfs have to spend alot of resources to get twf. A ranger circumvents this requirment. Possibly a halfling pick user is the way to go.

[Fallout]

gotta agree with mal. My pick barb is level 9 and outkilling everything. Crits can hit 160+ easy(+1 icy burst heavy pick of maiming is great for fire ellies)

That sounds like a fun build, maybe I'll try something like that. Unconventional builds are interesting.

[Fallout]

Wait, are you guys comparing dual wielding picks or just one hand pick?

When I was trying my TWF dorf, I made him a TWF using dorf axes. With fighter and dorf feats/enhacments it made TWF dorf axes pretty good.

A barb with TWF with picks will have great damage on crits, but I can't imagine the to-hit will be good.

[Maldini]

Wait, are you guys comparing dual wielding picks or just one hand pick?

When I was trying my TWF dorf, I made him a TWF using dorf axes. With fighter and dorf feats/enhacments it made TWF dorf axes pretty good.

A barb with TWF with picks will have great damage on crits, but I can't imagine the to-hit will be good.

The to hit is fine when you're strength is a 42 or higher.

[teddok]

That was my thought too. Fighter enhancements seemed to cap at 11, so 12-14 were a waste. I'm not actually sure I wouldn't be better off at Barb 4/fighter 10 - none of my enhancements require more than 10 levels of fighter. So should drop another feat for two more levels of barb, which would be trap sense (not so much) and another rage, but would allow me to pick up barb. toughness, more hp again, and better skills?

The Barb thoughness wont stack with the fighter thoughness.

[nbhs275]

The Barb thoughness wont stack with the fighter thoughness.

nope. Mixing barb+fighter isnt the best of ideas.

Also note:

Dwarfs can get the dex required easily. Just go

18 str
16 dex
16 con

and eat a dex tome.

Halfling isnt a good idea because of the str hit, and the dex not being very important(saves 4 build points that bring the con to where the dwarf would be, but losses 2 str to a dwarf)

Dwarven axe enhancements are expensive. 12 AP for +2 to hit and +2 damage isnt very cost effective.

[Maldini]

With the new +5 Seeker +8, Maiming Heavy Pick that you can get with Mod 5, which also has a 19-20 crit range, you'd be foolish to go with Dwarven Axes over this Pick.

You get it from collecting Tome pieces in the pre-raid. You have a 15-20 crit range on a x4 weapon. The damage is pretty sick.