/death = /screwed

[Spookydodger]

...
It's supposed to solve people dying to get rid of stat damage, feeblemind, and the like, or to avoid traps.

These are ABSOLUTELY NOT the reasons they changed /death. It was used to prevent things like trying to sneak your stone through the restless isles, or through barriers and such, as far as I can tell. These are exploits they have been trying to fix for some time and I guess they are trying yet another tactic.

Like you said, just about every major exploit you can imagine this would serve to address, it can be worked around by letting the environment kill you. Those 2 oozes at the entrance to the caves of the Restless Isles will be happy to perform a good-ole-fashioned /death on you.

So while I see how this could be used to close loopholes, I think it's much like the tools used to combat piracy (babababaaaa DRM). They serve to hurt more legitimate uses than they do illegitimate, for those that would undertake the latter route often are able to work around the limitation.

[Spookydodger]

I don't even see how bunch of negitive levels is a problem. That is what a cleric is for.

Certain undead in quests levels 3-7 or so can give you negative levels and there is no way that most players can get rid of them short of death or resting at one or more rest-shrines to get rid of it... or leaving the quest all-together.

Though some might argue that is part of the design of the quest: nearly-permo-screwed.

[Spookydodger]

If you are a project lead I can say with a high degree of assurance that you are not a good one.

Ouch.

[Spookydodger]

...I would rather the devs spend their time building new content than changing the existing gameplay.

Some would argue that a house built on a poor foundation is doomed to collapse. Some things need to be fixed. Whether or not this is one of them is irrelevant, the fundamental argument is not universal and so cannot be applied universally to this situation without proper cause.

If the quests were more random then people would not be able to use exploits to solve them because the quest would not be EXACTLY the same each time. I think this is all about fixing an exploit where /death is involved.

Yes and no. Some things could not predictably be exploited, but some things by their very nature could not be random (the boss is the boss, rarely could it be some random monster, for instance) and for the rest, multiple exploits could be developed to get around something. Randomly changing the conditions only slows, not fixes, the problem.

[Lillitheris]

The main thing I can think at this time of is "I've got a bunch of negative levels".

Let me break it down for you.

1. Main reason for multiple negative levels: Beholders.
2. Beholders: bugged.
3. Bug: anti-magic field not working properly.
4. Solution: fix the anti-magic field.
5. Fix: anti-magic should suppress, not dispell (in this case the Death Ward spell).

Get on it!

[ssg2wo]

I think it's amazing how many fixes they're willing to make to push this /death thing through.

Shrines fixing feeblemind. Potions to fix feeblemind. Feeblemind having saves. Being able to heal/repair when unconcious.

And there are still so many broken items in this game that have been around for a long time. Ranged combat still is an issue with arrows/bolts not getting rolls. magic missile not hitting your target if it's moving to the side. Beholder's antimagic field.

Way to stay focused.

[Ghoste]

Those 2 oozes at the entrance to the caves of the Restless Isles will be happy to perform a good-ole-fashioned /death on you.

Oh, but the repair bills!

[Shadow_Flayer]

If you've been hit by effects that make you want to kill yourself, that makes me think the mob won that battle (whether it died in the end or not). Either bring someone with the spell to correct your problem, someone with a decent UMD and scrolls, go back to town and own up to the fact that you lost, on continue on and deal with it.

Using /death to travel to a quest giver in the Restless Isles (yes, it is still possible to this day) or allow a stone to be picked up and dropped through a barrier (also still possible, is it not), is cheating. It's just awful that people might have to actually experience the tunnels in the Restless Isles, or overcome a challenge without using a mechanic that was clearly never intended.

The game has bugs. Every game does, and every game always will. People have been complaining that Stormcleave bugs out with certain required mobs not showing up. Wait until you have to run out to a quest giver in the Restless Isles and the quest giver doesn't spawn and the only way to get them to spawn is to reset the instance and run it over again. I don't see a lot of outrage over that, and that has been a bug since day one of Mod 2. Maybe some others will submit that as a bug, like I have been since August 2006.

They are closing a few long standing bugs in this release (held mobs still running after you, and magic missiles not tracking properly are supposed to be fixed, are they not?), while getting out a bunch of new content.

It seems to me that Turbine has a vision for the product and they are making corrections to fulfill that vision. While I may not like every change they make, I give Turbine kudos for having a goal for the game and moving toward the goal they feel is beneficial no matter what the reaction from the player community is. In the end, if Turbine heads toward a goal that so upsets the players that a majority of them leave, Turbine loses. But if Turbine leaves in things that make the game sub par (to them) because they are pandering the the screaming masses, even though they feel that it effects game play poorly, then they lose too.

For those of you who think I'm a fan boy for showing any amount of support for Turbine and will think I'll jump for joy for anything they do, good on ya. When asked by Turbine reps what I thought they needed to do going forward in the game, I told them they needed to stop dorking with the rules and start generating boat loads of new content (including but not exclusive too one or two new Tempest-style raids) and that they need to figure out their marketing problems and push the game more (there was a lot more ideas I suggested, but those were the bigger things). I've cringed at every release that has come out that has not given us more content, and had characters negatively effected by a number of the changes made this year.

In the end I will leave the game when it stops being fun for me. Even with the changes, that hasn't happened yet, though a few times I thought it might. But this change, like the change to VoN 6, is a minor change that corrects the mechanics of the game to some vision Turbine had for the game/quest. I respect them for following that. But if they don't fix more long standing bugs, and don't have a number of quests in the releases following Mod 5 but push through more rules changes, I think they are making a big mistake. But that is their choice. They know what the people are asking for in the game, but will provide what they feel the game needs. Hopefully, they aren't wrong in their feeling.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Let me break it down for you.

1. Main reason for multiple negative levels: Beholders.
2. Beholders: bugged.
3. Bug: anti-magic field not working properly.
4. Solution: fix the anti-magic field.
5. Fix: anti-magic should suppress, not dispell (in this case the Death Ward spell).

Get on it!

Agreed 100%. Add to that the anti-magic field should also prohibit the beholder from casting magic in the direction it is aimed.

Certain undead in quests levels 3-7 or so can give you negative levels and there is no way that most players can get rid of them short of death or resting at one or more rest-shrines to get rid of it... or leaving the quest all-together.

Though some might argue that is part of the design of the quest: nearly-permo-screwed.

Or you could argue that is exactly what happens in PnP D&D... You are hardly "permo-screwed". A rest shrine takes a level, a tavern fixes them all.

[~Treemarker]

Shrines fixing feeblemind. Potions to fix feeblemind. Feeblemind having saves. Being able to heal/repair when unconcious.

I'm guessing, but most of those are probably just a matter of setting a few flags. Some of the problems you mentioned (ranged bug, beholder's eye) are either multiple issues or would require reprogramming the actual mob. And lets face it, a beholder just wouldn't as much of a challenge if its eye was closed in order to hit you. As is, they don't really last more than 30 sec in melee and even less if a mage with PK or FoD is hanging about.

[~Treemarker]

It's just awful that people might have to actually experience the tunnels in the Restless Isles, or overcome a challenge without using a mechanic that was clearly never intended.

Shrug. Gotta admit I'm not steamed about that one. No working map made it a pain to learn the maze, and at the time of release, was a bit of a bear to plow through. Cap was lvl 10 as I remember. Maybe 12.

It would be interestering, now that we have access to raid counters, to see the populartiy of the various raids. ATM Reaver is probably at the top. Maybe followed by Tempest Spine. Dragon, DQ, and then the Titan. Then again...maybe that's just how I would rank them.

[blakbyrd]

In regards to Friar's last post, I think it is all very much true and not simply ranting in some fan-boy fashion. In the whole scheme of things that is largely where I stand as well (although I will go on rants on specific situations).

In regards to the /death thing, it is an available tactic. Granted awhile back there was the issue of being able to bypass doors by passing the stone through it, and that needed to be corrected and was. I was unaware that the problem continued with what I understand to be the blue force doors (maybe it is fixed now, maybe not, I dont know...if it isnt, then that should be corrected). However, er are playing in a fantasy world where people can be brought back from the dead, and as such, dying is a viable tactic. Raising the dead has been availabel in D&D for as long as I can remember, even back to the orginal basic edition (although a little harder to achieve then). However, killing oneself takes some willpower to decide to do, but think about it. If you lived in a world where you know you can be brought back to life within a short period of time, why wouldnt that option remain as a viable tactic to use in specific situations? Is this to suggest that in such a world commiting suicide is not allowed and that suicides are specifically banned from being allowed in the D&D rules? I can't say I have ever seen any such thing or even hinting at such a thing in any rule books ever produced. Granted in PnP it would mean carrying around a body, not just some stone, but it's still a viable option (albeit with a little more consequence), but still an option nonetheless. Now we are being told that the rules are changing to a state that suicides are basically banned from being allowed to happen.

Of course if dying actually had some real consequences in DDO, I expect you would see such tactics used far less, and this is where the rules between PnP and DDO differ much greatly than with the ability to commit suicide. Suicides should remain an viable and optional tactic, but instead deaths should be handled with more consequences, instead of being such a thing no one really thinks much about and is not real bother if they need to die or not.

As I understand it D&D is about creativity and groups working together to find a means of solving situations. This means that many options or ways to complete a task or quest are available. However, putting D&D behind a computerized DM, puts alot of limits on what can be done, but still leaves open the option to still have multiple ways of doing things. As we see changes occur with quests time and again, things tend to point to the idea that Turbine wants each quest completed in a specific manner, and they seem to take offense if people find ways of completing a quest in a different way, which goes against what D&D is. Aside from the basic core portions of the D&D rule, most other rules and modules in D&D are simply guidelines. They provide the storyline, and how you go about completing the storyline can be accomplish in many many different ways. However here, it is becoming more of an instruction manual...do all things in this specific order the way I say or you fail, you are not allowed to be creative and do it differently...oh you did? ok we'll take that ability away, now go back and do it in the order I told you to. Just very non-D&D to me (but again so is the lack of any consequence to dying).

Still though, many would argue that DDO has vastly strayed from being D&D, and that is true to some point, and thus changing the /death option is of little consequence one way or the other. However, Turbine does quite often state several changes to things on the idea that it was to bring things more in line with D&D, so it appears they have a desire to try to maintain things as close to D&D as they can. But, removing the /death option is basically going the opposite direction to this (again as is the design to have dying mean basically nothing). So to me, the real problem is actual death in the game, not the /death option.

[Gornin]

Again, there are few times when I call /death an exploit, and if you are soloing a quest and are willing to take the XP hit for it to SAVE TIME from recalling and still taking an XP hit, I don't see a problem.


The problem is as I stated earlier is that most people use it to SAVE TIME, and because you can't trade when incapped or helpless, since for some reason we can't search our fellow party members dead or helpless body in this world for an item to help them, or use your own potion or whatever on other players. That is what is needed. A fix to those two mechanics.


And of course the infamous fact that they have designed some quests that the only way the party can stay together and succeed is to /death, since you are gonna die any way, lets SAVE TIME and get it over with since the quest design really gives you no choice.


Sorry if this offends all of you UBER players, but I only have a limited time I can play and I haven't been able to grind my way through every quest to get every piece of uber loot and didn't min/max my toons from the start and find the best possible builds to be uber. You are gonna say you aren't prepared BLAH BLAH BLAH. Some of us play to have fun and not be UBER.


So I agree that this change does nothing but change what we do to die, and how much time we waste recalling and going back, if possible. If you are going to mess with existing content, take care of the things where people are using it because it is pretty much the only way around a poor design, or fix the bugs, or change it so we can trade while dead, incapped or helpless and so we can use our own items on fellow party members.

[Riddikulus]

I think it's amazing how many fixes they're willing to make to push this /death thing through.

Shrines fixing feeblemind. Potions to fix feeblemind. Feeblemind having saves. Being able to heal/repair when unconcious.

And there are still so many broken items in this game that have been around for a long time. Ranged combat still is an issue with arrows/bolts not getting rolls. magic missile not hitting your target if it's moving to the side. Beholder's antimagic field.

Way to stay focused.

Well Eladrin eluded to the fact that they are trying to fix exploit(s) by changing the death mechanic, and it is not only about the things we have stated so far.

So this is apparently important enough of an exploit fix that adding feeblemind cure to shrines, potions, saves, etc., are of minor consequence.

[Aspenor]

solo

Good solo'rs don't get negative levels.

[Aspenor]

So by your definition a good soloer is someone who is lucky enough to have a beholders optic nerve or has gotten the LOTD end reward because there is no other way to avoid them completely.

Fast-twitch gaming and skill.
*ninja*

[Riddikulus]

Good solo'rs don't get negative levels.

So by your definition a good soloer is someone who is lucky enough to have a beholders optic nerve or has gotten the LOTD end reward because there is no other way to avoid them completely.

[Aspenor]

/death is for noobs and exploiters

[Aspenor]

So by your definition a good soloer is someone who is lucky enough to have a beholders optic nerve or has gotten the LOTD end reward because there is no other way to avoid them completely.

See above post, Fast twitch gaming and skill.

[Riddikulus]

Fast-twitch gaming and skill.
*ninja*

I bow to your mario-ness.

Unfortunately, IMO, you are in the minority, most of us being unable to shoot ourselves out of a paper bag with a BFG. So Turbine has to coddle to the least common denominator.