Slow Down Sorcerer Spellcasting!

[negative]

Well, speaking as a Wizard, since I hardly ever need to cast more than a single spell per encounter, all I see that the Sorc's fast casting does is let silly casters waste all their SP on inefficient spells.

[Charmazal]

Ok - I agree with the OP if you give us an additional 25% to 50% spell point boost on top of what we already have.

I think the reason wizards get jealous is because there's such a low supply of useful spells. However as more spells get added, sorcerers will still only have the same amount known at a time.

Fortunately at lot of the threads that happen on the board do not get considered seriously, and I hope that this is one such thread.

[Gandalfs_Ghost]

OP: I believe "go away" is more of a request than an arguement.
Or an order if you like.
A command even.
A lot of the other posts though, those were arguements.

[Venjamin]

Done well, a wizard should be able to go toe to toe with any sorcerer. That's the inherent problem, the wizard is obviously not working to his full advantage. It's like a political campaign, ignoring his own shortcomings and blaming it on his class versus the class of another.

Sorcerers need the fast casting to balance out how pointless they would be without it. If you got rid of the fast casting, no one... and I mean NO ONE would play a sorcerer, because if they cast at the same rate, they'd be trading the versatility for SP, and no one would do that.

Wizards get the versatility.

Sorcerers get the speed.

That's how it is, and that's how it should stay.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Done well, a wizard should be able to go toe to toe with any sorcerer. That's the inherent problem, the wizard is obviously not working to his full advantage. It's like a political campaign, ignoring his own shortcomings and blaming it on his class versus the class of another.

Sorcerers need the fast casting to balance out how pointless they would be without it. If you got rid of the fast casting, no one... and I mean NO ONE would play a sorcerer, because if they cast at the same rate, they'd be trading the versatility for SP, and no one would do that.

Wizards get the versatility.

Sorcerers get the speed.

That's how it is, and that's how it should stay.

Wizards are a multi-function tool kit.

Sorcerers are a machine gun.

Both are useful, both have their place, both can get the job done in their own way.

[HumanJHawkins]

<CUT>Slow down the Sorcerer's cooldowns and cast time! It's time Wizards and Sorcerers were just as good as one another, just as they should be! One should not be clearly better than the other!

Dude. Just because you don't know how fo play a Wizard effectively is no reason to nerf another whole class.

I am on my third Sorcerer... Rerolled the first two because they sucked. It was a learning experience. So don't come on here and start asking for me to get nerfed just when I finally have something usable.

If you think a particular class is overpowered, get a piece of paper and start keeping track of how many times the different classes you play with die. I can almost guarantee you that Sorcerers will be at the top of your list. They are definitely NOT overpowered.

[Alexander_Illusioni]

The real issue seems to be that at each spell level there are really only 4 "useful" spells the way DDO is currently. Yes, someone can point out a few situations where a particular spell would be nice to have, but those situations can be handled with scrolls generally. Therefore, the assumed disadvantage of a sorcerer (less spells to memorize and the lack of being able to switch them out easily) really does not exist. This is more of a lack of useful spells than anything else. Only way I can see this improving is to make more useful high level spells.

[Draclaud]

The prevailing, most common opinion concerning arcane spellcasters in this game is that Sorcerers are better than Wizards. There are many arguments coming from both sides of the issue, but one of the most prevalent arguments out there is the Sorcerer's spellcasting speed.

You can compare the sorcerer's extra SP to the wizard's spell selection all you like, but the fact is that a sorcerer can fire off two Fingers of Death where a wizard can fire off one due to halved cooldowns, and on top of that, they get interrupted far less often because they're spending half the time actually casting the spells!

This is a blatantly unfair advantage given to Sorcerers with no legitimate reason. It have absolutely no basis in PnP, where Sorcerers were allowed 1 spell per round like everyone else, and not two spells per round.

On top of that, you can't even make a logical argument for it. If a Sorcerer gets decreased cast time because he is a 'natural' spellcaster, then why do bards get the slow cast animation and cooldowns?

Slow down the Sorcerer's cooldowns and cast time! It's time Wizards and Sorcerers were just as good as one another, just as they should be! One should not be clearly better than the other!

Dude, get a grip, It is what it is, and if you have a problem with it roll a Sorc. It seems everytime I hear the "Nerf Bat crowd" it's basically Waaaaah Some one has a beter character than I do Waaaaah Someone please nerf them, so my character won't stink as bad...Good Golly man reroll an effective char if it bothers you so much.

[DagazUlf]

This idea is right up there with Dingo's lets make the cure wounds series of spells cost 0 sp.

/so not signed

LOL

[Protagoras]

I'd perfer they just add more spells tat are useful...then wizards will get more love

Aesop

Wow.

I have chewed on this alot.. and that Aesop is a fable that is a perfect solution to this problem. If there wasn't such a 'short-list' of useful spells wizards would regain parity with Sorcerors.. Bravo ma'am.

[Protagoras]

Hmm .. my DDO Sorcerer can only know 4 spells maximum per level. Looks like that isn't in the PHB either.

Actually its pretty close to that in the PHB.

clickie

[Rastawiz]

I have posted this in so many of wiz/sorc threads, I feel like a broken record.

In order to balance the 2 classes you need to fix the utility of all the spells that are for the most part worthless. And add alot more of the spells from the PHB. I know turbine has done some of this but the process could use a boost.

For example, jump was a worthless spell for the most part. When they fixed it, everyone wanted it all the time. Scorching ray was a joke, they improved it and now everyone loves. If alot more spells were like this, then there would be no complaint from the wizards.

[Protagoras]

How can you put fast casting and some more spell points up against the fact that wizards can now cast like PnP sorcerers? Wizards can cast whatever spells they have studied however many times they want(sp dependant obviously). They are like PnP sorcys with a hugely expanded spells per level(that can be switched while resting).

Actually lets be reasonable about this shall we!

I am NOT saying I am behind the OP. I don't know, BUT

Wizards are NOT being able to cast like Sorc in PnP and Sorc aren't either.

Neither is being limited to a number of specific spells per level to cast, but rather are using a 'Mana' system.

If BOTH casters used the true PnP system they would be horribly reduced in power. And you could just about forget using MetaMagic with Sorc. at all if you went PnP as your casting times would become Horrid.

Anyway I think something needs to be done to make Wizards a LITTLE better.. I actually really Like Aesop's suggestion of MORE useful spells... I am also looking forward to a possible scribe scroll feat

[Bizbag]

After reading the posts in this thread, I'm convinced I was wrong to suggest that sorcerers' spellcasting should be slowed. In PnP, Wizards could not freely pick any spell they had prepared and cast it; only a sorcerer could do that. The Spell Point removed this advantage from the sorcerer, so in compensation, they cast faster and have faster cooldowns to compensate.

However, I do still think there is imbalance between the two classes. I think Aesop's point is very true; there are too few useful spells of any given level, meaning a sorcerer can usually have most or all of them (currently level 6 and 7spells are an exception). Perhaps what we need is to increase the usefulness of existing spells and add more spells to the game, so that a wizard's versatility will be more important.

[Protagoras]

After reading the posts in this thread, I'm convinced I was wrong to suggest that sorcerers' spellcasting should be slowed. In PnP, Wizards could not freely pick any spell they had prepared and cast it; only a sorcerer could do that. The Spell Point removed this advantage from the sorcerer, so in compensation, they cast faster and have faster cooldowns to compensate.

However, I do still think there is imbalance between the two classes. I think Aesop's point is very true; there are too few useful spells of any given level, meaning a sorcerer can usually have most or all of them (currently level 6 and 7spells are an exception). Perhaps what we need is to increase the usefulness of existing spells and add more spells to the game, so that a wizard's versatility will be more important.

Yeah I think so. That would be an elegant fix. Sorcerors are more popular currently, and have an edge in power. If there spell choice was a REAL hard one to make (i.e. many more useful spells) then wizards would become more viable as a class choice, and nobody has to be nerfed. Oh and I would still want a 'scribe scroll' feat.. and yes I know I am being greedy

[BUpcott]

After reading the posts in this thread, I'm convinced I was wrong to suggest that sorcerers' spellcasting should be slowed. In PnP, Wizards could not freely pick any spell they had prepared and cast it; only a sorcerer could do that. The Spell Point removed this advantage from the sorcerer, so in compensation, they cast faster and have faster cooldowns to compensate.

Much respect to you for actually saying that. Now if only you could talk to Dingo.

[Alavatar]

I just want to clarify some semantics.

Wizards and Sorcerers cast spells at the same speed. Sorcerer spell cooldowns is significantly less then a wizard. This gives the illusion of faster casting times if spam casting a single spell.

If you take a sorcerer and cast 4 different spells in succession (chain casting), time it, and compare it to the casting speed of a wizard chain casting 4 different spells, you will find that they take the exact same amount of time.

Sorcerers have the advantage of casting a spell repeatedly faster.

[Bizbag]

There is a universal cooldown, but I am relatively certain that it actually takes less time for a sorcerer to cast a spell than a wizard. To test it, take a wizard and a sorcerer into a quest, and have them both start casting a Summon Monster spell.

[Strakeln]

However, I do still think there is imbalance between the two classes. I think Aesop's point is very true; there are too few useful spells of any given level, meaning a sorcerer can usually have most or all of them (currently level 6 and 7spells are an exception). Perhaps what we need is to increase the usefulness of existing spells and add more spells to the game, so that a wizard's versatility will be more important.

Bingo. Although I wish to attach a rider to this bill: introducing more immunities to heighten the value of the versatility is not a good option.

(I'm picturing a scenario where you "need" spells that are pretty much useless in all other instances... say, where a boss is immune to everything but pink daisies. It highlights the advantage of being a wizard but essentially renders sorcs useless for that quest).

[Bizbag]

Bingo. Although I wish to attach a rider to this bill: introducing more immunities to heighten the value of the versatility is not a good option.

(I'm picturing a scenario where you "need" spells that are pretty much useless in all other instances... say, where a boss is immune to everything but pink daisies. It highlights the advantage of being a wizard but essentially renders sorcs useless for that quest).

This is one reason I like the Stormreaver raid. You don't have to have Otto's Sphere of Dancing to succeed, but it's probably the best CC spell to use against the Air Elementals. It also doesn't render Sorcerers useless by virtue of being a sorcerer, but it highlights their weaker point because both Finger of Death and Otto's Sphere are highly useful in there, but they can only choose 1 level 7 spell.