Questions about a 2-hand paladin build - a human with 18 strength?

[Ezekiah]

I'm rolling up a paladin to run with a regular group, and I plan on going the two-hand damage route.

Proposed stats are:
str 18
dex 8
con 8
int 8
wis 12
cha 16

I plan on taking toughness and the 4 toughness enhancements (as well as the save boost aura enhancements) to make up for the low scores, and taking PA, THF, GTHF, focus slash, and imp crit slash (plus toughness). human +1 to str and cha, paladin +3 cha, and 4/8/12 +3 to str. I plan to swing the biggest, meanest falchion I can find. I have zero gear, this is a fresh reroll on khyber


Are there any convincing reasons not to go this route? My thoughts were that the enhancements would make up for the hp, and of course I'd plan on wearing full plate, and rounding out scores with items, but a base str of 22 without items would be big fun. I'd just as soon not rely on any tomes (if a +2 drops, great). We will not be raiding - casual one night a week stuff.

[Blazer]

Pull that CHA down to 14 and push that CON up to 12. Starting with a negative to your HP is just plain silly.

Feats should be Toughness, THF, ITHF, GTHF, PA, and IC: Slashing. You won't be able to fit WF: Slashing since you need ITHF to get GTHF.

[binnsr]

I'm rolling up a paladin to run with a regular group, and I plan on going the two-hand damage route.

Proposed stats are:
str 18
dex 8
con 8
int 8
wis 12
cha 16

I plan on taking toughness and the 4 toughness enhancements (as well as the save boost aura enhancements) to make up for the low scores, and taking PA, THF, GTHF, focus slash, and imp crit slash (plus toughness). human +1 to str and cha, paladin +3 cha, and 4/8/12 +3 to str. I plan to swing the biggest, meanest falchion I can find. I have zero gear, this is a fresh reroll on khyber


Are there any convincing reasons not to go this route? My thoughts were that the enhancements would make up for the hp, and of course I'd plan on wearing full plate, and rounding out scores with items, but a base str of 22 without items would be big fun. I'd just as soon not rely on any tomes (if a +2 drops, great). We will not be raiding - casual one night a week stuff.

Personally, I would drop STR to 16 and shore up con and dex a bit..
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 16

Also, falchions look cool, but great axes outdamage them by a significant amount..

[Ezekiah]

Personally, I would drop STR to 16 and shore up con and dex a bit..
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 16

Also, falchions look cool, but great axes outdamage them by a significant amount..

Ah, I missed ITHF - I'm not that familiar with that line.

The thought about a falchion (or greatsword) is you have smaller crits, but more of them. This math makes sense for pnp, resulting in less "wasted crits" on weak enemies. I am unsure of how it plays out in ddo, as I have yet to get past level 3.4. The nice thing about this type of build though is I'm not tied to a particular weapon, just a particular damage type, so i can mix and match. I do prefer the appearance of a falchion, though.

The thought is, with something like a falchion and ic-slash, i'll see crits frequently, even if they aren't huge.

----

So, a vote to lower cha and raise con, and a vote to lower str and raise con - interesting.

I realize reducing hp right away is counterintuitive for a melee, but would I even notice with toughness at level 1 and the toughness enhancement at 1.1?

I guess it comes down to which will be worth more later, 2 str, 2 cha, or 4 -ish con (or 2con 2dex)

Er, hm, i seem to have counted my points wrong, too.

So:
16
10
10
8
12
16

H: PA
1: Toughness
3: THF
6: ITHF,
9: IC: Slashing
12: GTHF


I suppose I am not opposed to splashing fighter, either:
perhaps 10pal/4ftr
17
10
10
8
11
15

and take the paladin +3 cha, fighter +1 str, human +1 str, human +1 wis, and +3 str from levels, and I suppose I could pick up focus: slash, and specialization: slash, though I don't know what I'd do with the other feat. perhaps cleave?

[binnsr]

You can look at it this way:
-2 Cha =
-1 to all saves
less LoH power
less Smite damage
less intimidate (if you go that route)

-2 Str =
-1 to attack
-1 to damage

+2 Con =
14 more hp at lvl14

As to the 'will I notice' thing -- I don't think you really notice that your hitpoints suck until you play a character with better hitpoints and then come back to the one with lesser ..
For the feats you list, I would swap power attack and toughness around -- mostly because at lower levels, you feel the bite of the minus to your attack rolls from PA more.

If you want to splash fighter levels, I would go 3 fighter now (increase to 4 after the cap goes up again if you want), which gives you your 30-pt resists at pal11, as well as giving you the 3rd level fighter enhancements, which I think are pretty nice.

[juniorpfactors]

binnsr

has good advice......paly 11 fight 3.... pa should be taken later at any fighter lvl splash...with it on at lower levels you will miss very often unless you have a bard to buff....starting with a con lower than 12 is a mistake...i would find a way to start at 13 eat a tome+1 con ...that way you will be at 20 with a +6 item

[binnsr]

binnsr

has good advice......paly 11 fight 3.... pa should be taken later at any fighter lvl splash...with it on at lower levels you will miss very often unless you have a bard to buff....starting with a con lower than 12 is a mistake...i would find a way to start at 13 eat a tome+1 con ...that way you will be at 20 with a +6 item

regarding tomes, even if this is a 'fresh-off-the-boat-with-no-friends' character, you should plan your build around odd tomes and even items, because that's what's availabe at the end-game, as well as at the lvl20 endgame (at least that's what a Dev has stated previously). Just because you don't have one now, doesn't mean that you won't eventually have access to those tomes and items.

[ErgonomicCat]

binnsr

has good advice......paly 11 fight 3.... pa should be taken later at any fighter lvl splash...with it on at lower levels you will miss very often unless you have a bard to buff....starting with a con lower than 12 is a mistake...i would find a way to start at 13 eat a tome+1 con ...that way you will be at 20 with a +6 item

In the pen and paper game, fighter 3 is regarded as being worse than only one other level, and that's fighter 5.

Are there any enhancements that kick in at fighter 3 that make it worth taking? If not, I'd drop fighter 3 for Paladin 12.

[Blazer]

str 18
dex 10
con 14
int 8
wis 10
cha 14

Don't take the two handed fighting feats, they take up too many of your limited feats. Go Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Toughness, Improved Crit. And that extra human feat? Either get khopesh if you got em, because face it, you'll be using a shield more then you think, OR something like Skill forcus: UMD for the added bonus of high umd.

Solid advice.

I guess I'm a bit confused how this can be considered solid advice since the OP specifically stated he is building his paladin to be a two-handed weapon user. The advice given says to not bother with the THF feats, but instead actually spend a feat on an exotic 1-hander. A max STR paladin built for glancing blows (read: all THF feats) is actually a very potent melee character.

[bandyman1]

I guess I'm a bit confused how this can be considered solid advice since the OP specifically stated he is building his paladin to be a two-handed weapon user. The advice given says to not bother with the THF feats, but instead actually spend a feat on an exotic 1-hander. A max STR paladin built for glancing blows (read: all THF feats) is actually a very potent melee character.

Cleave and Great Cleave > than THF, ITHF, and GTHF - on this build ( psst. He doesn't have a barbarian's Str. ). The khopesh is a good feat choice for when he opts to go sword and board for the AC boost.

[binnsr]

Cleave and Great Cleave > than THF, ITHF, and GTHF - on this build ( psst. He doesn't have a barbarian's Str. ). The khopesh is a good feat choice for when he opts to go sword and board for the AC boost.

With the limited number of feats that a pure paladin gets, I would shy away from exotic weapons proficiencies. I would take toughness, sf: UMD, quick draw, or some other feat in place of that -- something that he'll use all of the time, not just when he deviates from the purpose of this build..

[Blazer]

Cleave and Great Cleave > than THF, ITHF, and GTHF - on this build ( psst. He doesn't have a barbarian's Str. ). The khopesh is a good feat choice for when he opts to go sword and board for the AC boost.

Psst, I realize he doesn't have barbarian STR - he's a paladin. No reason to be condescending.

With Rage and a +3 from Divine Favor he can achieve a rather strong damage output via the THF chain. Yes, his glancing blows won't be in the 30s or more a la Shade/Maldini, but they'll be pretty good. The OP stated he wants to go THF and use falchions. Why do you want to change him from this course of action and have him pick up clicky-type attacks and an exotic weapon proficiency?

[bandyman1]

Psst, I realize he doesn't have barbarian STR - he's a paladin. No reason to be condescending.

With Rage and a +3 from Divine Favor he can achieve a rather strong damage output via the THF chain. Yes, his glancing blows won't be in the 30s or more a la Shade/Maldini, but they'll be pretty good. The OP stated he wants to go THF and use falchions. Why do you want to change him from this course of action and have him pick up clicky-type attacks and an exotic weapon proficiency?

I explained the khopesh feat. It he doesn't want to take it fine. I didn't say he had to take anything. I said the post I quoted was solid advice. I stand by that. Weather or not he decides to take it is up to him.

Regardless of his chosen style, there will be times when it's more advantageous to go sword and board.

Spalsh damage for this build will be better if he takes Cleave and Great Cleave over the THF line.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

I explained the khopesh feat. It he doesn't want to take it fine. I didn't say he had to take anything. I said the post I quoted was solid advice. I stand by that. Weather or not he decides to take it is up to him.

Regardless of his chosen style, there will be times when it's more advantageous to go sword and board.

Spalsh damage for this build will be better if he takes Cleave and Great Cleave over the THF line.

How is this possible?
Can you please provide more information.

The 2-Handed Feats allow for Splash damage on 2 of the 4 swings per attack round (I think... but I could be wrong)... whereas Cleave and Great Cleave give 2 clickie-type attacks that cannot be used on each Attack Set... I don't know the exact timing, but I would assume every 3rd Attack Sequence... so out of 6 Attack Chains, you have 2 Cleave & 2 Great Cleave attacks vs. 12 Glancing Blows attacks... I have a hard time believeing the Cleave/Great Cleave damage would make up the 3x fewer attack opportunities.

Additionally, if the purpose of going 2-Handed for this build is to maintain Aggro, then wouldn't the more constant Glancing Blows damage output grab and hold that Aggor better than less-frequent but more-damaging Cleave/Great Cleave? I don't know myself, that's why I am asking for more details in this case.

In reality PA --> Cleave --> Great Cleave is the same number of feats as 2HF --> I2HF --> G2HF. It only saves a feat if the 2HF chain is taken with PA as well... for a savings of 1 Feat. Paladin 14 (non-human) gets 5 Feats. 1 is Toughness, pretty much a given. Then either PA/THF/ITHF/IC or THF/ITHF/GTHF/IC, or PA/Cleave/Great Cleave/IC. Is there really that much of a difference?

[llevenbaxx]

Cleave and Great Cleave > than THF, ITHF, and GTHF - on this build ( psst. He doesn't have a barbarian's Str. ). The khopesh is a good feat choice for when he opts to go sword and board for the AC boost.

Would it be crazy to take an 8/6 paly/ftr split? You could, feat wise, get the cleaves, Power attack, progression all the way to Greater 2-hand fighting, one toughness and still be able to pick up imp crit at 9th.

Not to mention you could still get paly's cha +2 enhancement, ftr str +2 enhancement and(in my case) WF con +2 enhancement. Bad idea?

[juniorpfactors]

crzy no...but a good idea no...11 paly 30 pt resists and much more powerful LOH