Questions about a 2-hand paladin build - a human with 18 strength?

[bandyman1]

str 18
dex 10
con 14
int 8
wis 10
cha 14


Don't take the two handed fighting feats, they take up too many of your limited feats. Go Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Toughness, Improved Crit. And that extra human feat? Either get khopesh if you got em, because face it, you'll be using a shield more then you think, OR something like Skill forcus: UMD for the added bonus of high umd.

Solid advice.

[Blazer]

str 18
dex 10
con 14
int 8
wis 10
cha 14

Don't take the two handed fighting feats, they take up too many of your limited feats. Go Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Toughness, Improved Crit. And that extra human feat? Either get khopesh if you got em, because face it, you'll be using a shield more then you think, OR something like Skill forcus: UMD for the added bonus of high umd.

Solid advice.

I guess I'm a bit confused how this can be considered solid advice since the OP specifically stated he is building his paladin to be a two-handed weapon user. The advice given says to not bother with the THF feats, but instead actually spend a feat on an exotic 1-hander. A max STR paladin built for glancing blows (read: all THF feats) is actually a very potent melee character.

[bandyman1]

I guess I'm a bit confused how this can be considered solid advice since the OP specifically stated he is building his paladin to be a two-handed weapon user. The advice given says to not bother with the THF feats, but instead actually spend a feat on an exotic 1-hander. A max STR paladin built for glancing blows (read: all THF feats) is actually a very potent melee character.

Cleave and Great Cleave > than THF, ITHF, and GTHF - on this build ( psst. He doesn't have a barbarian's Str. ). The khopesh is a good feat choice for when he opts to go sword and board for the AC boost.

[binnsr]

Cleave and Great Cleave > than THF, ITHF, and GTHF - on this build ( psst. He doesn't have a barbarian's Str. ). The khopesh is a good feat choice for when he opts to go sword and board for the AC boost.

With the limited number of feats that a pure paladin gets, I would shy away from exotic weapons proficiencies. I would take toughness, sf: UMD, quick draw, or some other feat in place of that -- something that he'll use all of the time, not just when he deviates from the purpose of this build..

[Blazer]

Cleave and Great Cleave > than THF, ITHF, and GTHF - on this build ( psst. He doesn't have a barbarian's Str. ). The khopesh is a good feat choice for when he opts to go sword and board for the AC boost.

Psst, I realize he doesn't have barbarian STR - he's a paladin. No reason to be condescending.

With Rage and a +3 from Divine Favor he can achieve a rather strong damage output via the THF chain. Yes, his glancing blows won't be in the 30s or more a la Shade/Maldini, but they'll be pretty good. The OP stated he wants to go THF and use falchions. Why do you want to change him from this course of action and have him pick up clicky-type attacks and an exotic weapon proficiency?

[bandyman1]

Psst, I realize he doesn't have barbarian STR - he's a paladin. No reason to be condescending.

With Rage and a +3 from Divine Favor he can achieve a rather strong damage output via the THF chain. Yes, his glancing blows won't be in the 30s or more a la Shade/Maldini, but they'll be pretty good. The OP stated he wants to go THF and use falchions. Why do you want to change him from this course of action and have him pick up clicky-type attacks and an exotic weapon proficiency?

I explained the khopesh feat. It he doesn't want to take it fine. I didn't say he had to take anything. I said the post I quoted was solid advice. I stand by that. Weather or not he decides to take it is up to him.

Regardless of his chosen style, there will be times when it's more advantageous to go sword and board.

Spalsh damage for this build will be better if he takes Cleave and Great Cleave over the THF line.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

I explained the khopesh feat. It he doesn't want to take it fine. I didn't say he had to take anything. I said the post I quoted was solid advice. I stand by that. Weather or not he decides to take it is up to him.

Regardless of his chosen style, there will be times when it's more advantageous to go sword and board.

Spalsh damage for this build will be better if he takes Cleave and Great Cleave over the THF line.

How is this possible?
Can you please provide more information.

The 2-Handed Feats allow for Splash damage on 2 of the 4 swings per attack round (I think... but I could be wrong)... whereas Cleave and Great Cleave give 2 clickie-type attacks that cannot be used on each Attack Set... I don't know the exact timing, but I would assume every 3rd Attack Sequence... so out of 6 Attack Chains, you have 2 Cleave & 2 Great Cleave attacks vs. 12 Glancing Blows attacks... I have a hard time believeing the Cleave/Great Cleave damage would make up the 3x fewer attack opportunities.

Additionally, if the purpose of going 2-Handed for this build is to maintain Aggro, then wouldn't the more constant Glancing Blows damage output grab and hold that Aggor better than less-frequent but more-damaging Cleave/Great Cleave? I don't know myself, that's why I am asking for more details in this case.

In reality PA --> Cleave --> Great Cleave is the same number of feats as 2HF --> I2HF --> G2HF. It only saves a feat if the 2HF chain is taken with PA as well... for a savings of 1 Feat. Paladin 14 (non-human) gets 5 Feats. 1 is Toughness, pretty much a given. Then either PA/THF/ITHF/IC or THF/ITHF/GTHF/IC, or PA/Cleave/Great Cleave/IC. Is there really that much of a difference?

[bandyman1]

How is this possible?
Can you please provide more information.

The 2-Handed Feats allow for Splash damage on 2 of the 4 swings per attack round (I think... but I could be wrong)... whereas Cleave and Great Cleave give 2 clickie-type attacks that cannot be used on each Attack Set... I don't know the exact timing, but I would assume every 3rd Attack Sequence... so out of 6 Attack Chains, you have 2 Cleave & 2 Great Cleave attacks vs. 12 Glancing Blows attacks... I have a hard time believeing the Cleave/Great Cleave damage would make up the 3x fewer attack opportunities.

Additionally, if the purpose of going 2-Handed for this build is to maintain Aggro, then wouldn't the more constant Glancing Blows damage output grab and hold that Aggor better than less-frequent but more-damaging Cleave/Great Cleave? I don't know myself, that's why I am asking for more details in this case.

In reality PA --> Cleave --> Great Cleave is the same number of feats as 2HF --> I2HF --> G2HF. It only saves a feat if the 2HF chain is taken with PA as well... for a savings of 1 Feat. Paladin 14 (non-human) gets 5 Feats. 1 is Toughness, pretty much a given. Then either PA/THF/ITHF/IC or THF/ITHF/GTHF/IC, or PA/Cleave/Great Cleave/IC. Is there really that much of a difference?

Because this build isn't doing a barbarian's glancing blow damage. Probibly about 20 maximum. Cleave and greatcleave are both a full damage attack to every opponet in range. When was the last time you saw a 14th lvl 2-handed weapon user with power att. do less than 40 damage on a swing? Add in greatcleave and that already beats 2 full attack sequences with GTHFing.

Considering base weapon damage, 28 Str on a 2-hander, + 10 PA, + whatever damage mods the weapon has, that's going to equate to more splash damage.

You do raise a good point with aggro, but as long he remembers to spam them both, I think his chances of holding aggro are just as good, maybe better.

[llevenbaxx]

Cleave and Great Cleave > than THF, ITHF, and GTHF - on this build ( psst. He doesn't have a barbarian's Str. ). The khopesh is a good feat choice for when he opts to go sword and board for the AC boost.

Would it be crazy to take an 8/6 paly/ftr split? You could, feat wise, get the cleaves, Power attack, progression all the way to Greater 2-hand fighting, one toughness and still be able to pick up imp crit at 9th.

Not to mention you could still get paly's cha +2 enhancement, ftr str +2 enhancement and(in my case) WF con +2 enhancement. Bad idea?

[juniorpfactors]

crzy no...but a good idea no...11 paly 30 pt resists and much more powerful LOH

[Ezekiah]

one point: this is fresh off the boat on a new server. 28 point build only - and no drow.

which prevents several of the builds posted from being useful.

I've seen the sword/board and khopesh builds many times. I have no khopshes available, though, would rather not build for the most in-demand weapon out there.

I could, of course, with the 2/3 level fighter splash, go THF -and- still get cleave/greatcleave. I strongly dislike the intimidate mechanic, and so I am not interested in playing a sword and board intimitank.

the group does have a barbarian too though, so some differentiation wouldn't be terrible... If i'm not going 2hander myself I'll never get agro off him, though.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Just shave off a little Dex and Cha... 12 starting Cha is fine.

Also, a 7/7 Split can be Very Interesting... Fighter STR 2, Armor Mastery 2, with BoG 2 & RoG 2 & Paladin Cha 2... Can make for one helluva build. Check out my "Basic Paladin Build Guide v1.0" Post in the Paladin Forums (or the link in my Sig).... look in post #3 a few pages down for the "Vindicator" build... 7/7 split w/ 2-Handed Fighting. One heckuva DPS machine template.