Make Clerical Healing Spells Cost No SP.

[Kraldor]

No SP for heal spells is way too powerful. *maybe* you can argue for an enhancement that reduces costs of heal spells, and even that is a very powerful ability. The only other way I can see something along this manner working is if you make Divine Vitality targetable on self, not just allies

[Targitaj_Silverskin]

:d .

[Mercules]

I think a big part of that is because this game relies so unbelievably heavily on Clerics and so very few people want to play Clerics because you DO end up a heal bot.

Fact - A level 6/1 Paladin/Sorcerer and 7/1 Rogue/Barbarian went through Gwylan's stand. They were not twinked, in fact we had to use the fire traps to kill the boss trolls because we didn't have flaming or acid weapon among us and they, unlike the normal trolls, were healing too fast for us to kill. There was 2 incaps and ONE actual death on that quest, but both of us could use wands and the Paladin could heal out of his normal SPs. I've seen a full team of level 7s team-wipe in there the difference, stupid play.

Fact - Clerics are -needed- for very few quests. The alternative is not a healing focussed Bard. The alternative is smart play and being prepared to take care of yourself.

Fact - I started a WF Rogue on another server. No way to twink down weapons or money because no other characters on that server. That WF was able to sustain himself on what he picked up out of the dungeon. I was actually shopping on the AH for the Rogue items I needed with what I gathered. I was able to keep myself in Elemental Resist potions, Repair potions, and other useful things without problem.

Fact - I am not an elite player.

It is amazing how something selfish like looking out for yourself and not counting on your teammates actually makes you a BETTER teammate than the idiots who assume someone else will buff/heal them.

[Sojourner]

This thread rocks!!

How else can you explain something this stupid getting 105 replies!!??

.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

If your not the cleric, your the mana sponge causing him to say this..

LOL ya that's probably the case. Cleric's don't get grubly unless the group is doing poorly.

those who complain about the wand costs ect are usually beginner clerics, after spending a fair bit of time playing the class you become better at it and the cost starts to go down dramatically, perosnally i havent gone over 2 CMW per quest in ages and i can still manage spells for other things..

Very true...

God I have become tired of these arguments and points being made, but here goes. Clerics don't NEED to be healbots- they should be combat triage specialists- meaning they only heal during combat. Afterwards, everyone drinks the healing potions they most responsibly bought. If you don't know where to get cure serious potions, they are in house K at liquid charms. There are also potions that can be used to:
Remove curse
Remove blindness
Apply Barkskin
Apply haste
Shield of Faith

The list goes on. Learn it, do it, and stop using your cleric for a crutch.

That isn't reasonable.

Ok, everyone shoudl have all the potions you suggest and I do carry them on my non clerics.

BUT... Wands for remove blindness, remove disease, and cure light/mod/serious are about 1/3 the cost of pots. It is selfish and irrisponsible for a cleric/ranger/pali not to carry these type of wands to help out the party.

[Mercules]

I was in the Threnal Library earlier tonight.

The Clerics... yes Cleric(s) not only ran out of heals, they almost ran out of wands. This was while the Sorc was consistantly casting, and landing, suggestion on the bad guys, who spent more time fighting each other than us.

But both of these Clerics were just absolute idiots who simply couldn't manage their SP in threnal on normal, right? I believe one was 8, the other was 9. These mindless zombie idiot Clerics not only relied heavily on wands... they had to. All while in the same room as a shrine.

I wouldn't say -that- was an example of a Cleric issue. 1. that is a difficult room that sucks down resources. 2. The Sorcerer was CCing one mob at a time and only those he could Suggest, there are other CC options. 3. Without having been on the quest, I won't be able to say where the issue came from but I would look at a common factor in your groups that leads you to believe Clerics need SP free Cure spells. Who is the one person in all your groups? Start there and be sure the fault doesn't lay with you before suggesting a game change.

[Mercules]

BUT... Wands for remove blindness, remove disease, and cure light/mod/serious are about 1/3 the cost of pots. It is selfish and irrisponsible for a cleric/ranger/pali not to carry these type of wands to help out the party.

Agreed. Anyone who can use them should carry status removal wands. This includes UMD Rogues and those splash builds that have UMD for weapon equipping. I carry them on my Cleric because, except for certain quests, it is rare you need that spell and it frees up a slot that is more all around useful for a buff or offensive spell that can actually help prevent some of the damage/status affects.

[blakbyrd]

How is a pack of scrolls and wands broken... They cost Plat. Secondly as i said before if I can run my bard through the quest as the only healer in the group not blow all my mana and use hardly any wands then any cleric can do it. My battle cleric i used to run could fight and heal with out a problem. The only time i ever relied on wands was when i first started running a Cleric and didnt know what I was doing. Heck Ive run many quests without even having a cleric in the party.Fact is free healing would be a friggin joke. THAT would cause a lot of people to leave the game includeing me.

For the most part this is quite true. Clerics are not usually required. In regards to Teddok, I salute you for your ability to play a cleric and for that matter a battle cleric well. Playing a cleric is about like American Idol. Sure anyone can get up on stage and try to sing, but the position itself is really only for certain types of people, and only certain people will be good at it. Playing a healing cleric is a difficult task, and is certainly not for some people, as is made evident by several clerics in game. Playing a battle cleric is a whole different ball of wax and even fewer do that well.

To play the healing cleric well takes experience, dedication, patience and the ability to focus on the task at hand...all combined with understanding your group. Playing the cleric in a PUG where you dont know anyone makes the cleric's job considerably harder as well.

Yes, scrolls and wands are expensive, and can add up extremely fast and cause some people to simply go broke. It is usually recommended that if you are not familiar with clerics or do not know the game or the quests, that you not start out in playing a cleric as your first character. I came from 2-1/2 years of playing the healing cleric in WoW, then moved directly to DDO, where my first character was a cleric. I learned real quick that things changed, and even having the background of playing the healer, knowing to watch health bars and anticipating the quests, didnt quite cover it for DDO. I was unable to be a real efficient healer here, and found the need to play another class for awhile to get the hang of the game before going back to my cleric. That made a huge difference for me and my ability as the healer.

Clerics are probably scrutinized more than any other class here, so you need to make sure that is what you want to do. A bad cleric can make a bad reputation for themselves quicker than most any other class, and you can find yourself being avoided quickly. Playing a cleric can also be a great expense that some find it necessary to have alts that help fund playing the healer, as many players dont donate to you. It's a job where selfishness cannot be any part of it.

What really gets me though are the groups that will not attempt anything without a cleric (granted a cleric is needed in some situations, but certainly not the majority of quests out there). To me this is a bad sign. Quite often it means people in the group have no means of self-sufficency at all. I;ve seen plenty of tank who dont even carry cure potions (because they are expensive, they say), nor resist potions or anything to help themselves. They find themselves entirely at the mercy and ability of the cleric to survive a quest. However they tend to forget the idea that if a cure pot is too expensive, how do you think the cleric feels about having to pay for wands and scrolls to cover the needs of everyone esle?

A good cleric needs to know alot, be able to understand what they are doing and what they are getting into. This is quite often why many healing clerics reserve themselves to guild runs only. It is much cheaper for them do play that way and not become the player subsidising the entire group by financing all the costs for healing the group. Regardless, if you PUG alot, then your cost factor for wands and scrolls will go up, its unavoidable because you are entering a situation where you lack all the knowledge necessary to be the most efficient you can be. It takes practice to get good at it, and not everyone has the playstyle to be the healer.

[Ringlord]

Well actually as long as a Ranger or Paladin can cast a spell then they can use the wand for that spell without needing any UMD skill at all and it does not matter if they are the right level to cast the actual spell yet either so they can use Cure Serious wands from L1 if they could buy them.

[JelloMold]

Well actually as long as a Ranger or Paladin can cast a spell then they can use the wand for that spell without needing any UMD skill at all and it does not matter if they are the right level to cast the actual spell yet either so they can use Cure Serious wands from L1 if they could buy them.

Are you sure about this? I think a cure serious (for example) is a minimum level 6 or so. I don't think there is a way around the minimum level requirement.

[teddok]

Are you sure about this? I think a cure serious (for example) is a minimum level 6 or so. I don't think there is a way around the minimum level requirement.

CSW is min lvl 5. It does not matter what ur caster lvl is but ur player lvl. If you are say 1ranger/4fighter you can use the CSW

[ahpook]

And this is what the Forum Elitists don't GET.

You have to develop the game for the players, you can't develop the players for the game. People are like "learn to play, learn to play. play conservatively, buy pots".

Screw that. Players, en masse, have opted out of DDO, and for good reason.

Your change would guarantee that most of the players left would depart in disgust. Everyone here (possibly excluding you) came because the D&D title. We would prefer to see some semblance of D&D remain.

...
Your purpose on these forums is to improve the game. That's really what the developers have this thing for. Not for you to carry on about how stupah dupah you are.

People are leaving, en masse.

I think a big part of that is because this game relies so unbelievably heavily on Clerics and so very few people want to play Clerics because you DO end up a heal bot.
...

People are trying to tell you that your suggestion will NOT improve the game. They give their examples not prove how supah they are but to back up their statements. So not all pug's burn through wands and scrolls. If every pug you are in does, perhaps you need to explore what is the one thing that is consistent in every group you pug with. Other people have figured that out which is maybe why they seem to be rejecting your idea.

If you are worried about Cleric's cash recommend that they pull wands and heal scrolls so people can learn to rely on good play and you will likely get more support. See, people want some "game" in their game,

[Tenkari_Rozahas]

Honestly, why should clerics get this? if anything else, i think they should give a little more SP to Rangers and pallys, their buff's help people need less healing more than anything else.

[Mercules]

Honestly, why should clerics get this? if anything else, i think they should give a little more SP to Rangers and pallys, their buff's help people need less healing more than anything else.

Or maybe make money easy to come by and wands available including higher level wands of Resist Energy/Protection from Energy... oh wait they did!

[Hendrik]

Funny how CLERIC's are chiming in and saying this is not needed nor wanted at all. And yet, the OP still says they are all wrong....

I would suggest the OP roll and play a Cleric and get some experience under his belt and then maybe come here and ask for changes to the class. Until he has experience playing the class he has no 'right' to ask for such a change.

And as a CLR, I hardly EVER run out of mana, close to never use wands/scrolls as a crutch for bad gameplay by my party - of course I am a member of a guild and do not have to see the bad side of gameplay, ie PUGS.

Cap a CLR OP, then come here and ask for changes, until then, please stay very quiet and do not mess with my favorite class!

[Tenkari_Rozahas]

Or maybe make money easy to come by and wands available including higher level wands of Resist Energy/Protection from Energy... oh wait they did!

Heh, my bard looted a resist energy wand level 11. nice to have on the reaver pre-raid.

[ErgonomicCat]

Or maybe make money easy to come by and wands available including higher level wands of Resist Energy/Protection from Energy... oh wait they did!

No, no, no. The economy is broken, there are no money sinks, we're flooded with plat.

Haven't you heard?

[blakbyrd]

Honestly, why should clerics get this? if anything else, i think they should give a little more SP to Rangers and pallys, their buff's help people need less healing more than anything else.

Well I wouldnt turn down a little more mana for my Pally or Ranger, however for such classes, the mana is mainly used for buffs, as their healing capacity is exceptionally limited (just mana wise not talking about their ability to use wands).

For most buffs these classes can cast, they are also available on as clikcies or potions (not all but most). There's a reason for this which is fairly simple. Any class can be self-sufficent (to a point of course, but that point usually covers most situations), if they want to. What seems to be an underlying point in all this is that some (or maybe even many) players choose not to be self-sufficient. Personally, I build all my characters to be self-sufficent. I do not need or require any buffs from anyone else. I am happy to get them if they wish to do so, but I rarely ever ask for anything. I have what I need to cover what I need (and for most everything, such items are readily available, if people wish to take advantage of that). In turn, being self-sufficent also greatly lessens the drain on the caster's mana, it can greatly lessen the need for a cleric to expend large amounts of healing, it keeps me going longer, allows the rest of the group to focus more on their tasks and less on having to run around protecting others, and is all around a more efficient means of playing for me. I dont need a ranger wsting their limited mana on keeping me in barkskin, when I can carry all the barkskin potions I need (not to mention i can use another when it wears out instead of asking for another one to be cast on me in hopes that he has the mana to even do it).

Sadly, some players simply will not take advantage of the items available to help themselves become more efficient for the entire group, and instead rely on others to do it for them and then sometimes complain that those other players can't conserve mana, or forget entirely about the financial costs that such actions can cost others just to help make them better.

Anyone can be 80-90% self-sufficent, but there will always be some situations where you must rely on others, but when those times come, they will be better prepared for them, if you took the time to be better prepared yourself (the "you" portions of this are not directed to anyone specifically).

[Aspenor]

I was in the Threnal Library earlier tonight.

The Clerics... yes Cleric(s) not only ran out of heals, they almost ran out of wands. This was while the Sorc was consistantly casting, and landing, suggestion on the bad guys, who spent more time fighting each other than us.

But both of these Clerics were just absolute idiots who simply couldn't manage their SP in threnal on normal, right? I believe one was 8, the other was 9. These mindless zombie idiot Clerics not only relied heavily on wands... they had to. All while in the same room as a shrine.

It sounds like somebody in that party was sucking up too many resources...

Hmmmmm...I wonder who that could be....

Do you have this problem regularly? Maybe its time for a little introspective.

[BUpcott]

Now Im ****ed.
Dude you are an idiot. I have tried so hard to never flame anyone but dude you are an idiot. How is a pack of scrolls and wands broken... They cost Plat. Secondly as i said before if I can run my bard through the quest as the only healer in the group not blow all my mana and use hardly any wands then any cleric can do it. My battle cleric i used to run could fight and heal with out a problem. The only time i ever relied on wands was when i first started running a Cleric and didnt know what I was doing. Heck Ive run many quests without even having a cleric in the party.Fact is free healing would be a friggin joke. THAT would cause a lot of people to leave the game includeing me.
Please save us from your stupidity and leave....JUST LEAVE

**** I am so ****sed.....

I love it!

And dingo i think it might be time to roll al cleric and get a real perspective. Although i fear i might regret suggesting that. If you do roll a cleric let me know his name so that i can at least give you a chance or two.