Make Clerical Healing Spells Cost No SP.

[blakbyrd]

Personally, I am seeing several inaccuracies amongst not only the OP here, but also some replies in opposition to him.

There are some problems with the cleric class, however most of them (in my opinion) are not in the class design, but with the player of those clerics. This is not to mean that the players are bad, rather their intention or attitudes don't work well for the cleric class. To further specify, the only comments I am really making here are in regards to the healing clerics, not the battle clerics, as they have plenty of threads of their own already.

A healing cleric can easily be the most active and busy member of a group, even if never entering into a battle themself. Playing a cleric can be very costly and very frustrating...it is not meant for everyone. Playing the healing cleric takes a certain type of person, and again not everyone finds that type of play fun, and apparently more people play clerics than people who find that style of play to be fun.

To be more specific, in regards to the OP, I do not think cure spells should be mana-free. Just think where the clerics would be if DDO went even closer to the D&D rules and only allowed you a certain number of spells from each level before having to rest instead of having mana which lets you cast many time more spells. Clerics also gain other benefits because of their lower mana count, which although usually ignored or taken for granted is partly why they get lower spell or mana counts. As some have mentioned, going mana-free isnt going to happen. All MMOs need money sinks and clerics tend to take the largest chunk of being that, but it's generally a false sense of need rather than the actual option to do so that it is.

As for those stating that a cleric should rarely ever need to resort to alot of wand or scroll usage, that is somewhat true and somewhat false. It really depends on your playstyle and attitude towards playing a cleric. It is true that you shouldnt need to spend much on such items when the cleric is exceptionally picky about how or who they play with (of which many do this, and it greatly lessens the clerics available to many groups, which is an adding factor to the bad name of clerics everywhere). It is true, that those clerics who only group with guildmates or specific friends will generally go through much less supplies than any other cleric, and by limiting oneself to such groups, is easy to claim that a cleric should not need such supplies or funding for those supplies. The false part comes in, because not every cleric is experienced, nor does every cleric decide that they will only play with certain people or groups (thankfully they all do not do this or a large partion of the game would find themselves with no available clerics ever).

As for the idea that clerics cannot cast offensive spells and be healers at the same time, while preserving mana, that too is false. They most certainly can, and in many situations, the use of such offensive spells can save alot of mana from not having to heal people as much. Knowing which mob to cast slay living on, or when to comet fall an oncomming group of mobs can save a ton of mana by making the kills easy on the group and requiring little to no healing being cast during the fight. Clerics have quite a few nice offensive spells that are very beneficial to the group as well as very beneficial to the cleric's mana. The determining factor to this, however, is knowing when to use them and when not to.

To be the most beneficial healing cleric to a group, many things must be combined and acted upon accordingly within any given group, and the group itself determines the values each thing has in importance. Again for those who only do guild groups, they do not have to give much thought to things as they know exactly how their friends play and they know what to watch for, and can negate many portions of trying to determine what holds the most importance. This also greatly helps in negating the necessity for lots of extra supplies in wands and scrolls. However, we all know that such groups are not going to happen, and there are many, many PUGs that will negate all such rules and expectations. Sadly though, many clerics will simply avoid those groups, and by doing so, it is very easy to say that there is no need to spend alot of money on items or you're simply playing poorly. There's a reason why such clerics wont join PUGs, and thats largely because they know very well that in doing so it will involve spending alot more on items to keep the group alive.

All in all though, to be the best healing cleric you can be relies on experience and quest klnowledge, and ifnally adding in an understanding of your group's make up (be it friends or strangers). All 3 things must be taken into account, however their individual importance is based upon your playstyle. Some clerics prefer to conserve mana and use wands and scrolls instead, while others reserve wands and scrolls as a last resort. Both styles work quite well, however one will be more costly than the other. Neither is wrong, just undertsand how you play and what your needs are. Try playing both sides, you might find the other more beneficial to you. Nothing will make playing the cleric easier than simple experience, as you begin to learn what is most effective where, when the group needs to be at full health and when it doesn't, etc. KNowing the quests is also very important, as you know what buffs are needed and which ones aren't, when you need to conserve mana and when you can dump it quickly, etc. Group makeup is also important. If you know your group and hwo each person plays it greatly lightens the load on the cleric and they know who to watch and take care of first. In a PUG, the place of the cleric becomes much more hectic, as you do not now how each person is going to play, who is going to be the one to run off, who is going to accidentally pull the next group of mobs before you are ready, etc. All of which equates to more mana getting spent unnecessarily. However this will happen in PUGs on a normal basis. Typically, PUGs tend to be the big reason so many clerics go into hiding. It is more costly in mana and supplies, and many PUGs are less likely to offer donations to cover these supplies to the cleric, instead leaving the cleric to foot the entire bill to help allow the group to succeed, which in itself is not entirely fair, but it happens alot. This also adds to the bad name of clerics, even though in these cases it isnt the cleric's fault, instead they become money conscious over mana conscious. We all know most quests will not produce enough in loot to cover the cost of even 2 cure serious wands, and many a cleric can find themselves broke if people don't help out or they dont have other characters to send money from.

All in all, the cleric is a great class, but probably the most abused. They are fully capable as they are now, if you are able to play it well, and again, not everyone can or wants to play that way...clerics are not for everyone. Most other classes are rather forgiving in their playstyles, whereas clerics do not get nearly as much room in their playstyles if they are to be a healing cleric.

On a final note, no...clerics are not required in every quest. In actuallity, clerics are not really required much at all, except for a few certain quests where people maintain a common method of finishing a quest (although alternatives are there, just that most dont use the alternative methods). Many classes can heal, and in good groups these other classes can fulfill all healing needs just fine. The problem comes in when people playing these other classes simply refuse to do the healing when needed. I've seen plenty of rangers, paladins and UMD rogues, who either dont know they could even heal or use wands, but who simply refused to even do it. In a good group a couple of these would be all that is needed, and that's not even taking into account the beneficial nature of having a good bard along.

[Targitaj_Silverskin]

my sorc have not anoth sp for kill all monsters - hey make my spell's cost 0 sp

lol most stupid thread ive ever seen^)

[Aesop]

um...no... sorrry i'd have more in depth reason but really that is just crazy.


now if you said you wanted them to inlude the Feat from Complete Arcane that let you sacrifice a permanent spell slot 8 levels higher to get one of your spells as a spell like ability usable once per round...then I'd say sure. Of course until 17th level you couldn't use that Feat anyway... but you'd then be able to have Cure Light Wounds that you could cast an infinite number of times for no mana cost.


I think the Feat is called Innate Spell. It has some prerequisites that are a little hefty too.. I think Silent, Still, and Quicken Spell


Anyway


I believe this suggestion would make the game far far far too easy. If other peopole in the group would just self heal a bit and help the poor cleric out I think it would make everyone's life easier.

Aesop

[Hendrik]

*I* don't even play a Cleric... it's the Clerics who are so often griping about being perpetually out of mana and or wanding.

As a person the PLAYS a Cleric, a big, fat NO!

[llevenbaxx]

Don't you get it... HEALING IS ALREADY FREE.

The ONLY real difference between what I'm proposing and the system that exists currently is that it costs the Cleric less money.

But... I thought it was free?

No really I think I get what your saying. Adventuring can cost as much or as little as you want it too. That is a fact. For all classes, you can buy a ton of useful but not neccessarily needed items. If you choose not to have them(while playing any position), you end up leanning on your party a little bit more. Most of this leanning gets put on the clerics shoulders for better or worse. If you didnt have to buff at all or cast cures between battles, would be hurting at any point for sp?

As a cleric, you have to find a playstyle that is both fun and profittable. Most of this(98% or so) depends on your party and the quests that party is trying to tackle(level 12-13 party in a level 16 quest? You will/should need some additional healing. Same as 6-7 level party in a level 10 quest). If you are constantly having to revert to wands/scrolls, the party is out of its league. Not trying to sound elitist by any means, but as a cleric you can limp a party through just about anything, but you will be trading plat directly for xps. The choice is yours.

[Dharma]

Free heals would completely unbalance the game..

My main character is a cleric which I play often. I have 1295 sp and have no problem buffing, healing, destructing, and anything else I want to throw in the mix. (Symbol of Fear, G. Command...etc.) I don't use wands or scrolls nearly at all. I no longer accept money for them either.

If you can't complete any quest without using them including the Reaver Preraid which I typically have at least 1 unused shrine in. Then you need to learn to play better.

You are probably:
- Over healing
- Not using good heal efficient spells
- Not letting the tanks take enough damage before healing
- Topping off hp bars is what costs most clerics sp that they should spend, so don't do it.
- Battle Cleric spec'd (Str build cleric is ******** - If you wanted the sp to be a true battle cleric you would go for max sp so you could use your spells.)

The Healbot Build cleric is a poorly played extremely powerful class so forego STR up your WIS get the SP and cast for damage not wield a weapon.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

If you don't need them... why carry them? Why have them at all? Oh, wait, in case you... wait for it... wait for it..

In case you DO need them.

And if they never came in handy, you wouldn't keep them around.

That would be the same reason my sorc carries backup wads and sp pots...

My first 1750 char was a cleric. That also means it was an untwinked char. Prior to the change in SPs I went through wands like crazy. After that I still went through them, but not too badly.

By L10 or L12 I also made enough between questing and donations (which I never ask for) that I was always doing just fine... I also learned by then to tell people to behave when they were being stupid and if they didn't, oh well, I carried them to the shrine.

When new areas got openned up in the GH I went through heal scrolls like toilet paper. On a general quest now I only run seriously short of SP if I've decided to go heavily offensive on my casting and not just contribute strategically to the offense.

I wouldn't mind a little more SP... I think it would be more fun if they got something between what a Wiz & Sorc get... but if Clerics had unlimited healing we would be a dominating force. I mean seriously, we'd outkill the rest of the party.

Alrighty, no wands... go do madstone crater, elite, no wands. No scrolls. And since you're so good at what you do, no pots of any sort for you or them. Oh, and you're the only one healing.

Come back.

Tell me how it went.

Done it. With a weak party I end up needing a wand to do some topups, but 1 wand (or a couple heal scrolls) tops. If it takes more than that...the party SUX big time and they need the cleric to step in and tell them what to do.


And a weak party is the biggest reason some clerics sit back and just heal. Some of them don't feel safe watching combat while they also try to keep track of bad party's idiot meters.

[Gennerik]

Alrighty, no wands... go do madstone crater, elite, no wands. No scrolls. And since you're so good at what you do, no pots of any sort for you or them. Oh, and you're the only one healing.

Come back.

Tell me how it went.

As a matter of fact, I have done it already. I actually never use the Mnemonic Potions, so that isn't even an issue. Being the sole Cleric, I used about a wand of Cure Serious, though I also focused on mostly healing or Cometfalling things. The reason I know this is because it's one of the few quests where doing it on Elite means that I may have to use wands because of the giant skeletons. They make it difficult to use the Mass Cure Light/Moderate spells without getting hate and they hit everyone, meaning that you're going to need to heal the melees a lot.

[AmsterdamHeavy]

We don't need our heal spells to be free, some cleric just need to learn that the red bar doesn't have to always be full.

/QFT

...and vice versa; the 300 hp tank doesn't need to be at full every second of the quest either.

"h3al!"

[Rissten]

Another thing I do with my cleric that usally gets those kill counting tanks back in line and keep them from running away all crazy, is this simple rule go it alone die alone. I'll pick up the stone and carry it till we get to a shrine instead of resing them. this give them the opportunity to think about their actions. I don't chase people I usally stay with the largest group if they run off.

[binnsr]

2) Not everyone needs to be healed at the end of a fight. IE, let the people that can use wands or heal, top themselves off.

QFT - My fighter carries 3 stacks of CSW pots and starts chugging them as soon as the battles over -- I view after-battle healing to be my responsibility.
Rather than rant over healing spells costing money, why don't you rant that not enough people are topping themselves off?

You should be able to make to to level 10-12 with only a dozen wands or so.

QFT again! I purchased 5 CSW (or maybe it was 6?) wands for my little cleric when she turned 5. She's lvl10 and has 3 and a half of those wands left. When my blue bar hits rock bottom, I simply say 'running on wands now' and my team usually tightens up for the few minutes it takes to get to a shrine.

Maybe thats because she rarely PuGs out -- running with a fairly consistent team can dramatically change your financial outlook.

[Mercules]

How often do you see a Cleric cast Flamestrike? or Dismissal? Hell, SOUNDBURST?

The vast majority of the time I see a Cleric I see that cleric standing around doing not much of anything. Just waiting for a little red bar to go down.

At lower levels I use Soundburst and Command to great affect. Soundburst works wonders on mobs with low Fort saves and Command is good for those with low Will saves. One for caster and rogue mobs who can do good burst damage or hold, and the other for things like ogres, elementals, and giants who can all do a lot of damage.

Searing Light & Nibus of Light are great for those things that are hard to hit or have DR. Searing Light works very well on Undead.

The various alignment smiting spells can be very handy and Divine Power can turn a meek Cleric into something that can beat it's way out of a bad situation and an already combat focussed Cleric into a killing machine.

When we get to level 5 spells we start getting nasty. Slay Living drops casters quickly as it is a Fort Save. It's more powerful than PK as there is only one save, although the range is a bit closer. Greater Command turns a group of Giants/elementals into statues for 6-12 seconds(did you know you can Extend it?) and give melee a good chance of destroying them without taking damage. Dismissal can get rid of some nasty foes with the wave of a hand.

6th level spells. Blade Barrier, wow. Comet Fall, wow. Symbol of Fear, wow. I use them all. Blade Barrier is great for those mobs that are hard to hit or have DR. Throw up the Barrier and keep them moving through it. Comet Fall does damage and knocks mobs down. I have alternated it with Greater Command to keep a big group under control when someone pulled extra agro. Symbol of Fear is becoming a new favorite Crowd Control spell for my Cleric.

Then we get Destruction and things die. Symbol of Stunning can be great as well.

I don't just stand around and heal damage. I PREVENT it in the first place. Why? Because it is cheaper to kill a caster mob dead than to heal up the 4-5 teammates that would have taken a couple of AoE damage spells otherwise.

The other way I save SPs is not healing idiots. I watched a Fighter run through several traps chasing a caster mob further and further away from myself and the Sorcerer who were just waiting for it to come into range.

The Rogue in the group was disabling the trap and we all could have pulled back around the corner and killed the caster mob when they came around with little damage. The now nearly dead Fighter stood on the other side of the traps until disabled and then just continued to stand there waiting for healing. I finally broke down and tossed a Divine Healing on him and let him sit that out. Had he died I would have carried his stone to the shrine. If he didn't like it, well, tough. My concern is keeping the group upright and moving forward and wasting my SPs now means I won't have them when we all need them later.

When I am not the "healer" of the group I am ALWAYS able to heal myself. My WF has a splash of Wizard and wands. My Rogue and Sorcerer UMD wands. I also run a Bard and Paladin who are self healing. My Fighter is the only one with no access to wands, and she carries potions and USES them even when being healed. If I do something stupid(and I do that from time to time) I heal my own butt up.

Clerics would stop complaining about costs if people would start being responsible for themselves and stop expecting Clerics to "Shut up and heal." Why don't I play my Cleric in PuGs much? Because people expect me to show up with wands and Heal & Raise Dead scrolls and use them constantly. I refuse to. I will bring along several Cure Serious wands, about 15 Heal scrolls, and about 10 Raise Dead. -IF- I use a scroll then something has gone seriously wrong and we need me to or the quest is going to fail. Wands I use just to ease people's minds when I bust out the offensive magic and I don't mind using half a wand on a quest. I do not, however, go through multiple wands on a quest like some Clerics.

[Laith]

if you want to better understand the issues of being a cleric: play one.

apply this rule anywhere it may seem appropriate.

next time a cleric complains about healing your group, remind them that they have a CC effect for each type of save:

fort: soundburst (yes, it works in GH on normal/hard just fine), destruction (the death of a caster well worth its weight in healing)
ref: cometfall
will: command, greater command, order's wrath, chaos hammer

... and a damage effect that can easily rival fire wall (blade barrier).

it may take a while for a cleric to stray from the tried-and-true tactic of healbotting. But, like finger of death + firewall, being reliable doesn't make it the best tactic in every situation.

[Shrazkil]

Listen... Clerics don't have enough SP.

They don't. They live off wands, they live off scrolls.

Whatever.

They don't have enough SP.

Clerics hardcore spec'd just for healing often have not enough SP.


So...

Just let Clerics cast their spontaneous healing spells for free.


Seriously. It would dramatically improve the game.


Listen, eventually it becomes an issue of how deep the Clerics pockets are... not skill... not SP management... but how many wands you have on you... how many heal scrolls.

It's got to stop.

So make Clerical healing free.

Test it.

Try it.

See for yourself.

wow , i feel much dumber after reading that for some reason... WTB extra cromosone back, paying well.

[Winded]

I have a capped Cleric. I hate when people who dont play a cleric say anything about clericing. Go away and build a cleric.

This thread has been a excercise in BS , as usual, with the Uber liars. Deflate your egos a bit and be honest for a change.

Ill set a challenge. For all those that say I never use scrolls or wands, prove it. Come with me, group up or shut up. All pugs , Raid preferred and not the wussy Reaver Raid.

There is nothing more useless than a heal bot. They are typically played by people who have never played a video game before. How absolutely boring. I feel sorry for ya to be so , so.... well boring. Healbots are for Girls that are playing this game cause their BFs do. ( laugh please... this is dribble anyway so why not laugh about it)

I prefer to be an active member of the group, a leader, a killer, a healer.

See how that was stated, "leader" first.
Most clerics I play with couldnt lead a group out a paper doll fight. And we wonder why other player classes have weird expectations of clerics.

The person using the Reaver Pre-Raid as an example - HAH( the loudest HAH, you;ll ever hear). Theres more shrines in there than any class could use.

If you dont use wands and scrolls , you probably dont use much in the way of other spells, and prefer to watch people take damage and complain about it than throw down some of the most powerful spells in the game.

Im building a new 32pt cleric. He is first and foremost a Spell slinger then a healer. Get used to it.

[Mizyrlou]

My cleric main used to be what seemed perpetually five shades of broke with all the cure wands I'd blow through. That changed once I started running quests with a steady group of people. I had a better handle on playstyles and what thier rosters had as far as hp and damage dealing, as well as they knew what capabilities mine did.

My cleric's still not rich, but she's equally not desperate to grab whatever coin drops from a broken crate like she used to be.

Equally, knowing how well the CC lands really helped for what I call 'proactive healing' since if the mob's been greater commanded, it's too busy trying to get up to be whomping on the group.

And as far as Winded's comments, as much as I'd love to disagree, I really don't want to get the infraction point as well as I do need to head out to work.

[Roguewiz]

I have a capped Cleric. I hate when people who dont play a cleric say anything about clericing. Go away and build a cleric.

This thread has been a excercise in BS , as usual, with the Uber liars. Deflate your egos a bit and be honest for a change.

Ill set a challenge. For all those that say I never use scrolls or wands, prove it. Come with me, group up or shut up. All pugs , Raid preferred and not the wussy Reaver Raid.

There is nothing more useless than a heal bot. They are typically played by people who have never played a video game before. How absolutely boring. I feel sorry for ya to be so , so.... well boring. Healbots are for Girls that are playing this game cause their BFs do. ( laugh please... this is dribble anyway so why not laugh about it)

I prefer to be an active member of the group, a leader, a killer, a healer.

See how that was stated, "leader" first.
Most clerics I play with couldnt lead a group out a paper doll fight. And we wonder why other player classes have weird expectations of clerics.

The person using the Reaver Pre-Raid as an example - HAH( the loudest HAH, you;ll ever hear). Theres more shrines in there than any class could use.

If you dont use wands and scrolls , you probably dont use much in the way of other spells, and prefer to watch people take damage and complain about it than throw down some of the most powerful spells in the game.

Im building a new 32pt cleric. He is first and foremost a Spell slinger then a healer. Get used to it.

Healbots are played by two types of people.
1: The social person. Who likes to group and such.
2: The person that wants to be "god" in the group and hold everyone's character lives in the balance.

Most are #2

[bandyman1]

This is wrong on so many lvls I can't even reply.

/Not signed

[Mad_Bombardier]

How much SP does it cost to heal the damage dealt by a Commanded giant? You guessed it, ZERO! Use your Cleric SP for buffs and offensive or crowd control casting and you won't need much SP for healing.

[Sojourner]

The thing about running with pugs, is the cost for supporting them is all over the map.

Using Reaver Pre-Raid for exmple -- My cleric has ran that thing with pure pugs (zero guildies, friends, buddies, etc - 5 completely strangers) probably around 20 times.

• I've ran it with pugs that donated 5 or 6 wands, 10k plat, and then ran the entire mission with me only using 3 wand charges and 1 scroll.
• I've ran it with pugs that didn't donate a single copper, and it took all 30 heal scrolls, most my rez scrolls, and all my wands.
• But, on average, with a decent pug that knows how to act fairly competent, that mission burns up about 2 wand, 10 heal scrolls, and half a dozen rez scrolls.

I carry enough to cover worse-case scenarios, but don't start to get worried until they start burning through multiples of the average.


The lesson here ---

If you are constantly using up scrolls and wands, no matter what mission you run or who you group with, whats the common denominator in all those groups you've been in? Probably you. Doesn't mean you're an idiot player or have a gimp build, just means you need to go back and look at your playstyle and strategies to see how you can improve.

For a cleric played efficiently, you should only be using a couple wands or scrolls here or there.
Once you've got that down, you realize a very important truth -
A cleric's costs are not based on how uber a build the cleric is, or how elite their gear is --- it is all a matter of how good their team is.
If you go into that reaver mission and only burn up one or two scrolls -- you weren't an awesome cleric, you were a good cleric supporting an awsome team.


Honestly, cleric costs are pretty low. And, probably on par with (or cheaper than ) what fighters are paying for equipment repairs and pots.