I'm afraid of Sorcerors...

[Aspenor]

Great, you can take care of yourself.

Can you rez the Cleric?

*Snort* Who plays with clerics? What a worthless class.

[moorewr]

*Snort* Who plays with clerics? What a worthless class.

Actually, from here on out clerics will be a pretty impressive offensive class. They're transformed around level 13 and it will just get better from there. Destruction and banishment with heighten alone make them pretty scary.

[Cowdenicus]

*Snort* Who plays with clerics? What a worthless class.

That will be enough from you Mister. Dont you have a zone to go solo farm?

[Aspenor]

That will be enough from you Mister. Dont you have a zone to go solo farm?

Not till I get off work And I prefer running with one other person, not alone.

[Charmazal]

Someone mentioned immunities above, which I think is likely. As I've posted before in these forums, some of this could also be resolved by mobs pre-buffing and doing it somewhat randomly and intelligently.

For example, having all of the Giants in Gianthold Tor immune to a large number of spells seems kind of lame. But, what if 1 in 4 of them had Deathblock on, another one had FoM, and a couple of them kept up other buffs? Maybe a Fear Immunity spell for PK could be added (or just have them cast GH). To me, it would enhance the difficulty of the missions without feeling cheap. And if done correctly it could preferentially affect some classes more than others (i.e., Deathward isn't going to prevent the barb with the big sword). If used in the right places it could also make some classes more useful in quests where they don't get a lot of invites.

I'm not sure how likely this is, but I don't think it would be ridiculous to code.

.

I agree - if they could pull it off that would be very cool. Adds a level of randomness - can't just automatically assume that paralyzer will work because one or two *might* have freedom of movement on them. Really good idea.

[Dkmafia]

D&D is not balanced for the individual. It is balanced towards the group, and the central character of that group is the magic-user. Even at early levels, the rest of the characters in the party should be molding their tactics around the spells in the caster's arsenal. It's the nature of the game.

The problem with this standard D&D concept in DDO is that Turbine has corrupted the game, making it more about individual achievement and item acquisition than about anything else. Even amongst guild groups, the majority of the game seems to be comparing kill counts and uber items.

The funny thing is, a sorceror hardly needs a single item to be superiorly uber over most other characters, especially nonmagical melee. So the facade of this game is actually a complete hoax.

Well said!! OMG lets hear this again:

"The problem with this standard D&D concept in DDO is that Turbine has corrupted the game, making it more about individual achievement and item acquisition than about anything else. Even amongst guild groups, the majority of the game seems to be comparing kill counts and uber items."

Just wow. People pay attention here!! I wish this concept would sink into your thick @$$ skulls.

[Seneca_Windforge]

One good way to balance sorcerers with wizards (at least in my opinion) is to make sure that each spell level has at least 7-8 good spells, preferably more. That way, the wizard's additional spell slots and ability to easily switch spells is useful, while the sorcerer is forced to make very painful decisions about what spells to take in exchange for additional SP and a casting time decrease. You already have that to some degree at certain spell levels right now, but some spell levels have only a couple of really good spells (and some, like the 5th level spell list, pretty much just suck).

It is unfortunate that a large portion of the arcane spell list is nearly worthless in most circumstances.

[Cowdenicus]

One good way to balance sorcerers with wizards (at least in my opinion) is to make sure that each spell level has at least 7-8 good spells, preferably more. That way, the wizard's additional spell slots and ability to easily switch spells is useful, while the sorcerer is forced to make very painful decisions about what spells to take in exchange for additional SP and a casting time decrease. You already have that to some degree at certain spell levels right now, but some spell levels have only a couple of really good spells (and some, like the 5th level spell list, pretty much just suck).

It is unfortunate that a large portion of the arcane spell list is nearly worthless in most circumstances.

I would like to point you to what the divine spell lists will be for level 8 and 9.

[Seneca_Windforge]

I would like to point you to what the divine spell lists will be for level 8 and 9.

Yes, the level 8 and 9 cleric spells are nice. Mass Cure Critical, Holy Aura, Greater Spell Immunity, Fire Storm, Symbol of Death, Energy Drain, Mass Heal, Implosion, True Resurrection...

How is this relevant to my post (which was about balance between high level sorcerers and wizards)? There are plenty of good Sor/Wiz spells at level 8 and 9, too.

[Cowdenicus]

Yes, the level 8 and 9 cleric spells are nice. Mass Cure Critical, Holy Aura, Greater Spell Immunity, Fire Storm, Symbol of Death, Energy Drain, Mass Heal, Implosion, True Resurrection...

How is this relevant to my post (which was about balance between high level sorcerers and wizards)? There are plenty of good Sor/Wiz spells at level 8 and 9, too.

Mass cure and heal, yes.

Holy Aura is a no go, they havent given us any of our aura spells, greater spell immunity is a no go, as you can see we do not have spell immunity now. Heck we dont even have energy immunity yet.

Fire storm may be all right.

Symbol of death will be worthless (read the spell description to figure out why.)

Energy Drain, meh, it might be all right, depends on all mobs immunities by that point.

Implosion I put right there with miracle, it will be a miracle if we see it.

[Aesop]

Mass cure and heal, yes.

Holy Aura is a no go, they havent given us any of our aura spells, greater spell immunity is a no go, as you can see we do not have spell immunity now. Heck we dont even have energy immunity yet.

Fire storm may be all right.

Symbol of death will be worthless (read the spell description to figure out why.)

Energy Drain, meh, it might be all right, depends on all mobs immunities by that point.

Implosion I put right there with miracle, it will be a miracle if we see it.

I think we'll see it ...but may not recognize it as such... unless they make it a rolling ball like Flaming Sphere... though I'd suspect something more like an AoE Destruction

Aesop

[transtemporal]

No no no, sorcerers are every bit as human and vulnerable as the rest of you meat shiel.. er, party members. We value and respect every member of the party, even though we know we could make you dance a polka and there would be nothing you could do about it.

Seriously though, sorcerers/wizards have the same vulnerabilities at 20th level that they have at 1st level - they are soft and squishy and don't have many hp.
I guess high AC stops being the differentiator it was at low levels because mob attack bonus has long since outpaced AC bonus, making it virtually certain that even ultra-high AC toons will get hit (at least this is the case in the PnP game, not sure if its as much of a factor in DDO). Their vulnerability is still their crappy hp. 2 or 3 hits and its goodbye birdy.

[Dragonhyde]

Want to make that Sorc less scary just have less shrines, no ability to recall for mana and have him anger the only cleric in the party with dvs.

[Draclaud]

I've been mulling about this... and I have to say... I'm concerned.

What will Sorcerors be like at level 20?

Currently... Sorcerors can kill with a word, charm constantly, raise the dead, heal like mad, and lob damage spells left and right, and can come equipped with more than a few rather useful buffs.

I've seen Sorcs cure blindness, disease, paralysis. I've seen Sorcs raise the dead. I've seen Sorcs wand heal very very well... and in some ways, I've seen Sorcs... well... Tank.

Yeah, Sorcs can... in a backhanded way, tank.

When a Sorceror charms five guys... that's what he's doing. He's tanking.

He's keeping the aggro off the team. Sure, it can be considered crowd control, but isn't tanking just another form thereof?


So, one must ask... where does it end? The immense power of the Sorceror...


At level 20 a Sorceror will be able to (most likely, if the Devs give them the iconic spell) walk into a room and kill everything in it with a single spell. What's worse they will be able to fire this spell off repetitively. A level 9 spell will only cost 50 sp. How much SP will a level 20 Sorc have? A few thousand? Most likely.


What's going to happen when Sorcs ascend to virtual godhood at level 20?

Not sure which one, but they desribe Epic Level Sorcerors as "Near Mythic Beings". They arn't going to be any more powerful than a necro-specced cleric at that level, or a wizard. Good Golly, "Wail of the Banshee" is going to be a monster if it's ever put in the game. As some one said earlier though, as levels go up so do spell resistances, and saves. DnD PnPis like this as well, Up to level 10 mele's rule the game. After level 10 it's all about the tanks keeping the monsters off the mage so he can kill everything. Right around epic levels though it starts to taper back to the meles again. Don't fret man, this is how it's suppoed to work. DnD is a very balanced game where different classes shine at different levels.

[teddok]

Wow. What will be the difference from a lvl 25 Sorc or a lvl 25 Bard. They will both be killing machines and on the same token they will be up against lvl appropreate foes.

[blakbyrd]

Honestly I wish that Mobs would cast Defensive Spells more often and less often were just given immunities... that way we could dispel them and use tactics as opposed to just slamming our heads into them.


Aesop

I completely agree

[JosephKell]

A good INT Rune ought to do it.

*snort* This does seem to be the reason to bring a Wizard isn't it.

Actually, from here on out clerics will be a pretty impressive offensive class. They're transformed around level 13 and it will just get better from there. Destruction and banishment with heighten alone make them pretty scary.

Anyone familiar with the term CoDzilla? In PnP it is reliant on a broken mechanic called Divine Metamagic. But in DDO with spell points, it shouldn't be too hard to do a CoDzilla.

Yes, the level 8 and 9 cleric spells are nice. Mass Cure Critical, Holy Aura, Greater Spell Immunity, Fire Storm, Symbol of Death, Energy Drain, Mass Heal, Implosion, True Resurrection...

How is this relevant to my post (which was about balance between high level sorcerers and wizards)? There are plenty of good Sor/Wiz spells at level 8 and 9, too.

I think LotD series will be hilarious with an all Cleric party spamming Mass Heal!

[spifflove]

All of the mobs will be hordes of sorcerers. Hope you don,t mind when they cast dispel magic on your charmed army.

[Verlok_the_Red]

All of the mobs will be hordes of sorcerers. Hope you don,t mind when they cast dispel magic on your charmed army.

Lol, I was just wondering if Turbine would make npc's dispel their charmed friends.. lol probally not, b/c evey damm wizard would litter the board with complaints.. ahaha.. Monsters get a full selection of spells.. I just wish their AI would include useing them

[MtnLion]

All of the mobs will be hordes of sorcerers. Hope you don,t mind when they cast dispel magic on your charmed army.

In several quests, especially ones with scorrow, I have noticed dispel being cast by the mobs on attackers. It is not unlikely, at present, to have a charmed mob dispelled.