I'm afraid of Sorcerors...

[Aspenor]

A Wizard would have to full on take a level in another CLASS in order to match or beat a Sorcs natural abilities.

A wizard that knows what he's doing is a force to be reckoned with, even more than a sorceror. Self healing? Don't need it. I don't need healing, period. A few potions is more than enough. SP? Know how to manage it, not a problem.

[Dingo123]

A wizard that knows what he's doing is a force to be reckoned with, even more than a sorceror. Self healing? Don't need it. I don't need healing, period. A few potions is more than enough. SP? Know how to manage it, not a problem.

Great, you can take care of yourself.

Can you rez the Cleric?

[Mhykke]

Great, you can take care of yourself.

Can you rez the Cleric?

Pffff, any chump w/ a rez ring can do that. Not that "scary". My 6 cha barbarian can do it.

[Mhykke]

A Sorc can become insta death necromancy killer easy.

All you need is heighten spell, spell penetrations, and Spell Foci (Focuses?)

You don't need much else.

Nobody said they couldn't be instakill. What I said, and you've ignored, is that they'd be giving up a lot. The spell pen feats, heighten, and a spell focus or two doesn't really leave you much room to play with as a sorc, does it? What will that uber instakill sorc do on boss mobs compared to the wiz who has the same instakill setup, and enough left over to improve his damage output?

I'm sorry, but you're picking one advantage a sorc has, and you're making it seem like your opinion is fact that this advantage makes him superior. You're completely ignoring certain aspects that make wizards superior in some regards. They're both pretty balanced, and, at lvl 20, equally "scary."

[Dingo123]

Nobody said they couldn't be instakill. What I said, and you've ignored, is that they'd be giving up a lot. The spell pen feats, heighten, and a spell focus or two doesn't really leave you much room to play with as a sorc, does it? What will that uber instakill sorc do on boss mobs compared to the wiz who has the same instakill setup, and enough left over to improve his damage output?

I'm sorry, but you're picking one advantage a sorc has, and you're making it seem like your opinion is fact that this advantage makes him superior. You're completely ignoring certain aspects that make wizards superior in some regards. They're both pretty balanced, and, at lvl 20, equally "scary."

That Instakill Sorc has plenty of options. They're not balanced. Sorc>Wiz. I'm sorry. They might by level 20 get a minor in enchantment. Turn all that bosses minions against him... or they may minor in evocation... and THAT would be frightening. Could you imagine a Sorc spamming Meteor Swarm?

[Mhykke]

That Instakill Sorc has plenty of options. They're not balanced. Sorc>Wiz. I'm sorry. They might by level 20 get a minor in enchantment. Turn all that bosses minions against him... or they may minor in evocation... and THAT would be frightening. Could you imagine a Sorc spamming Meteor Swarm?

Way to not respond to any points.

I'm sorry, you haven't proved your case that sorc>wiz. Just b/c you repeat it over and over doesn't make it true.

Others and myself have shown you how it's not true, and you don't respond other than to reassert your (incorrect) point.

[boldarblood]

Doesnt seem like many agree with you. It seems you have shortsighted yourself into concentrating on one aspect of the class and ignore all else. Both are equally as powerful and I welcome either into any quest I do. Its the player not the class that makes a character good.

[Mhykke]

Its the player not the class that makes a character good.

Amen to that.
That's something I didn't even mention. Any class could be "scary" or not, depending on how good the player behind the class is.

Wiz and Sorc and pretty equal. Each has their strong points. Focusing on UMD as a game breaking feature of the sorc is ridiculous on its face.

[Dingo123]

Doesnt seem like many agree with you. It seems you have shortsighted yourself into concentrating on one aspect of the class and ignore all else. Both are equally as powerful and I welcome either into any quest I do. Its the player not the class that makes a character good.

You'll see.

[Xyfiel]

Sorcs are da suck vs my halfling pal/barb throwing build I got planned out.

Muwhaha.

Seriously though, every class is scary at level 20. Hybrids less so, but very versatile.
Clerics will be able to res 2 people and mass heal within 5 seconds.
Paladins/monks have insane defense
Barbs can have 600+hps.
barbs/rogues have high dps.
Bards still have the best CC, even compared to a spamming enchanter.
Druids can have armies.
Rangers have great survivability.

If your wizard needs to res, you wasn't doing a great job in the first place.

[bobbryan2]

I'm afraid of Sorcerers
I'm afraid of the world
I'm afraid I can't help it
I'm afraid I can't

God is a Sorcerer
God is a Sorcerer

[Dingo123]

God is a Sorcerer
God is a Sorcerer

QFT

[Paragon]

Ya know, maybe, just maybe, at level 20 it won't be all about the fighters/barbs/rangers/paladins running in and beating the **** out of the mobs any more. Maybe the casters will become powerful....scary thought.

IMO, casters have languished at the bottom of the stack for far too long. They should be powerful at the high levels. Right now its kinda scary what a barbarian with the SoS can do, running in, raging, and annhililating huge groups of mobs without so much as a second thought.

I would say that the barbarians right now with 46 str and 48 con while raging, over 600 hps and completely insane dps are just as scary as the sorcs of the future with 2000+ sp of nuking, killing, and charming at their disposal.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Right now its kinda scary what a barbarian with the SoS can do, running in, raging, and annhililating huge groups of mobs without so much as a second thought.

I would say that the barbarians right now with 46 str and 48 con while raging, over 600 hps and completely insane dps are just as scary as the sorcs of the future with 2000+ sp of nuking, killing, and charming at their disposal.

QFT.

[moorewr]

I'm afraid of Sorcerers
I'm afraid of the world
I'm afraid I can't help it
I'm afraid I can't

God is a Sorcerer
God is a Sorcerer

[The_Cataclysm]

I'm afraid of Sorcerers
I'm afraid of the world
I'm afraid I can't help it
I'm afraid I can't

God is a Sorcerer
God is a Sorcerer

If you say so, Mr. Bowie.

[Rissten]

This is a team based game as stated at high levels caster are supposed to be powerful, for example of how it's balance at level 1 I had to depend on the tanks to carry me though quest. Now at high levels I carry tanks. But, still you have to base your play style to the group your in. If a Sorc or Wiz knows what he is doing he makes life easier on the clerics. Instead of chaseing tanks around he has a caster that can be healed useing lower healing spells instead of hitting tanks with 3 heal spells to get them back up. Tanks are still needed. I don't pay any attention to the kill count other then to see if we got conquest. Bottom line big mob fights can go terribley bad with no crowd contrl what so ever. On another note PK FoD spamming casters are the one that can't hit hard, and if you want a glimps of what it's going to be like for that build at higher levels, just take a trip to the haven in house K and go have them try to spam that stuff on the trolls which have death block

[Cowdenicus]

If your wizard needs to res, you wasn't doing a great job in the first place.

And this one statement ends the debate in a flash, because very few truer words have ever been spoken.

BTW

QFT

[chemonz]

I think several factors might come into the game that may make wizards as powerful as sorcerers by level 20. First off I wouldn't be surprised to see more metamagic come into the game for high level casters.

If I was the devs I might consider new metamagic types like permanent spell. It would need to be implemented more like it is in NWN2 where it takes up mana as a spell 6 levels higher and it can only be cast on a level of spell that is 6 lower than the highest you can cast. In other words, if you can cast 7th as your highest than it only works on 1st level spells, and if you can cast 9th level spells it works on up to 3rd level spells. Permanent spells would last the entire time you are in an instance, until you leave or die. I think with 9th level spells it is obvious where this would be of most use.....haste! You could also limit it to only certain spells as they do in NWN2.

Also I think high SR will become a staple of high level mobs, in fact there may be whole dungeons with high SR mobs. This means that Spell pen feats will become very necessary. With changes like these wizards will be able to do it all much more so than a sorc with all their extra feats. Sorcerers would be forced to go in one direction or another due to a lack of feats.

Finally, wizards can multi-class much easier than a sorcerer. If a sorc takes a level or 2 of something else at level 20 he/she loses out on some important spell slots, of which they only have a few at high levels (3 per level at 6 and higher spell levels). For a wizard losing a few spell slots is not as much a problem. They have more to begin with and can change out spells to fit each dungeon. So a wiz18/rogue 2 has the more spells to cast, just as high a umd, evasion, and enough mana if managed correctly.

In the end I think they will be equal, but with differences in play style that may be more pronounced.

[Gathor_Stormforge]

A good INT Rune ought to do it.