Barb Vs. 2h Ftr

[Sadus]

Just to troll a little bit... for 1 min out of 20 this is what my WF Pally can do THIS....

Base 30 Str
Rage +2
Manstone +4
Bladesworn Trans +4

= 40 Strength

Bonus damage
PA w/ WF PA = +16
DF = +3
Blades = +4
Wep Special = +2
Smite Evil = +37 (formula if you don't know is 10+ 3x (lvl -1))

= 62 + Strength damage (22.5 or 24 if madstone goes off again from ranadom effect) = 12 (Max Wep Damage)+ 86 + 5 (Wep Enhancement) x 3 +18 = Max Hit of 327 :P... if I did my math right


So... do I get a cupcake for best situational DPS

Obviously a Pally can't maintain this... but I do like to humble Barbs with the possibilities

[Renegade66]

Prove it.

Take your straightforward, easy to build Barbarian with SoS and Bloodstone and compare it to a straightforward, easy to build DPS Fighter with SoS and Bloodstone and show that you will double the kills every time in every quest.

That will be SOME mathematical model involved to take Cleave and Great Cleave into account (or Greater THF into account, whichever your Barb did not take), or Crit Accuracy enhancements, or Haste boost.

I say it's impossible, and that the best-guesses based on limited data and analysis suggest the gap is much closer than you chest-thumping Barb fanatics want to believe.

/gren

Can't empirically prove it. I only have experience to go with. I've been playing DDO for about 2 years (beginning of Alpha testing). I've played myriad versions of DPS fighters and more recently Barbarians. I've played along side the best DPS fighter builds Xoriat and now Thelanis/Tharask has to offer and have never met a fighter type that could consistently approach 50% kills of either of my TWF or THF barbarians.

Of course, the biggest factor is not build but instead fighting technique and skill. In no way am I saying that the DPS is twice a fighters, however, it is signficantly higher to the point where I no longer see a benefit to playing a Fighter over a pure Barbarian. +2 Crit Range is just that good. 46 STR is just that good. Mid 20's Will Saves is just that good. Sprint Boost and DR are just that good. You should try it and join the club.

[Shade]

Obviously a Pally can't maintain this... but I do like to humble Barbs with the possibilities

Well you won't humble any good barbarians..

But you should make fighters look pretty bad while you have that transformation up. +7 dmg + another +3 for DF.. +10 dmg,
vs ftr at +1 dmg str, +4 dmg gws, +5 dmg. (could be human for more str but then -6 dmg for power attack)
And the +1 to hit for greatswords is kinda neat too, well for SoS anyways. Smite spec WF pally is pretty cool build, esp with some rogue lvls for umd to self heal and be nigh indestructible.

Thing about barbarians for crit numbers.. Is they can get lucky and crit like 10 times in a row for 200+ per hit. That just doesn't happen on paladins. You can crit 300+, and maybe even 400+ with a heavy pick, but not many times in a row.

[Shade]

And yea even if Fighters were a bit better at DPS, I like many strong barbariasn could still get double there kills.

Never failing will saves, rushing ahead like a madman with sprint boost and barbarian speed along with massive hitpoints just plain leads to insane kill counts. Fighters cant even get to the fight by the time you have everything killed, even if they did do better damage. Run speed plays a big factor in killrate.

Hell I know a few rangers that cannot be outkilled by fighters.. Again - sprint boost is the reason.

For a fighter to get 50% of my kills mean they are extremely skilled and a awesome build, I love grouping with those types of fighters there great players. The average fighter will get around 1/3rd to 1/8th my kills.

[Sadus]

And yea even if Fighters were a bit better at DPS, I like many strong barbariasn could still get double there kills.

Never failing will saves, rushing ahead like a madman with sprint boost and barbarian speed along with massive hitpoints just plain leads to insane kill counts. Fighters cant even get to the fight by the time you have everything killed, even if they did do better damage. Run speed plays a big factor in killrate.

Hell I know a few rangers that cannot be outkilled by fighters.. Again - sprint boost is the reason.

For a fighter to get 50% of my kills mean they are extremely skilled and a awesome build, I love grouping with those types of fighters there great players. The average fighter will get around 1/3rd to 1/8th my kills.

lol... omg.... I lmfao...... dude.. Axer you are too much sometimes .... Please pass me the doob

I'll play cleric.... you go in there with Hydro and Gerb.... and I'd love to see those 1/3rd and 1/8th kill counts your talken about

[Capstern]

I would gladly take Gerbillee in there head to head for a run for fun - that would be a hoot.

My little halfling chickie 12 rgr/1 rog/1wiz yeah baby

Not saying I would beat ya but I would bet I dont miss by more than 1-2 kills

[A_Sheep]

The average fighter will get around 1/3rd to 1/8th my kills.

The problem is using kill counts as a metric. I will take an incredibly simplified scenario of 10 mobs with 500 HP each.

Barbarian does 100 DPS. Fighter does 75 DPS.

Let's look at it 3 ways:

Way 1: Both gang up on the same mob all the time.

Fighter is doing 43% of the DPS, Barbarian is doing 57% of the DPS. Just due to chance of landing the final blow, fighter ought to kill 4.3 of them and Barbarian ought to kill 5.7 of them. (this is not what typically the strategy people use)

Way 2: Both start at opposite ends of the line of mobs.

Barbarian kills 1 mob in 5 sec, fighter kills 1 mob in 6.66 sec. In the first 26 seconds, Barbarian kills 5 mobs and fighter kills 4. They are both now fighting the last mob and have the same chances as above of landing the killing blow. So, you could say fighter killed 4.43 of them and Barb kills 5.57 of them. (This is also not the typical strategy)

Way 3: Fighter and Barb start on different mobs right next to each other, when the Barbarian finishes his mob off, he works on the fighter's mob, then they each move to a new mob.

Barbarian kills 1 mob in 5 seconds and moves on to the nearly dead mob the fighter has been working on. Barbarian has a 57% chance to 'steal' the kill. They move on to the next mob and same thing happens. This leads to Barbarian getting 5 kills straight up and 57% of the other 5 kills (2.85), leaving the fighter with 2.15. Barbarian kills 7.85 and Fighter kills 2.15.

Via way 3, The fighter has only 21.5% of all the kills, but is contributing 43% of the damage.

Using the tactics in way 3, having even the slightest (1%) DPS advantage leads to getting at least 75% of the kills.

I'm not saying that the strategy in Way 3 is particularly wrong. It requires significantly less communication than Way 1 (which is probably the ideal way to kill stuff). It does, however, spread the agro around, while Way 1 will keep almost all the agro on the Barbarian (easier for cleric) and perhaps allows the fighter to flank (fighter's flanking?), possibly increasing the overall DPS of the group.

Basically, a Barbarian (or any higher DPS character) getting 3 times the kills of another high DPS character is usually symptomatic of a team that doesn't quite work together as well as it could (I definitely fall into this category). This doesn't mean to blame the barbarian for being 'selfish' or whatnot. It just means that kill count doesn't equal contribution to melee combat.

[NightbirdX]

I find that all this talk about how no one can hold a candle to so and so's build and won't even get close to their kill count is a little bit dumb. I have never seen anyone in the game that will just absolutely obliterate anyone's builds. A well played, well kitted, well built Fighter will go toe to toe with a well played, kitted, built Barb. I merely started this thread as a fact gouge, not an e-peen measuring contest.

I pride myself in building very good builds, particularly fighter builds. I play the build then I find whatever is wrong with it and rebuild it better. I have never, and the Rock repeats NEVER, had any other melee outkill me 2 to 1. Most of the time I will lead kill count, and if I lose it isn't by a huge margin. That goes for both my Tactics tank, and my TWF DPS'er. If you are playing with a group of people that can't kill anything, you should just hand wands to them and have them heal you, because they are complete toolbags.

I'd even be able to take you up on that challenge Renegade if you want to have a go sometime. My Dwarf isn't even really a DPS'er he is more a versatility build that kills extremely well and stays alive (52 Buffed AC, 346 HP at level 13.) And I would be willing to bet you won't slay me 2 to 1.

[Spakerman]

...(good stuff)...
Basically, a Barbarian (or any higher DPS character) getting 3 times the kills of another high DPS character is usually symptomatic of a team that doesn't quite work together as well as it could (I definitely fall into this category). This doesn't mean to blame the barbarian for being 'selfish' or whatnot. It just means that kill count doesn't equal contribution to melee combat.

I wish more people would read this and just stop looking at the kill count during quests ... period. In fact I wish it was hidden completely. It matters not who kills what... what matters is that they get dead before you do.

[Renegade66]

I'd even be able to take you up on that challenge Renegade if you want to have a go sometime. My Dwarf isn't even really a DPS'er he is more a versatility build that kills extremely well and stays alive (52 Buffed AC, 346 HP at level 13.) And I would be willing to bet you won't slay me 2 to 1.

Awesome. Sounds fun. At least something different than pharming Crucible & PotP.

Might I suggest Madstone Crater Elite? It's a long enough quest to get a good sample size and has a nice mix of hefty monsters.

The bet is simple. You have to get at least half the kills of Jellybean.

If you do, I will publically humble myself with an "I was wrong" statement on this forum (better yet a new one) and side with the fighters against Shade and other Barbarian lovers.

When you... I mean if you lose, you need to join the Barbarian bandwagon and help us spread the truth that Fighters are currently gimped compared to pure Barbarians. No more talk about how "fighters can hold their own", etc. This should be easy as you will have experienced first hand how an uber fighter couldn't even muster half the kills of an elven Barbarian.

Let's line up a couple clerics and a couple casters to assist. Self buffing only with the exception of haste from the casters. We progress through the quest in the normal manner (i.e., no one gets left behind to die, we gather for group heals, hastes, etc.). Casters cast crowd control only (in addition to haste). Meaning, no firewalls, FoDs, PKs, etc. Webs, dancing balls, gay bars, flesh to stone, hold monster, etc. allowed.

Fair enough?

I have my Fantasy Football draft tonight, but this weekend should be good. How's your schedule look?

Ren

[nbhs275]

hmm... Maybe we should do this kind of thing on khyber... Get a DPS Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger. Everyone goes in with only self buffs and no healer. Whoever gets the most kills before dieing wins.

I think the best of each class i can think of on khyber is

Fighter: ???? alot of good fighters, but not any DPS ones that really stand out

Barbarian: Malidini comes to mind, he would be a good pick i think

Ranger: Either Squal, or Infidel. Both **** good rangers.

Paladin: I feel kinda bad nominating my paladin, but there are simply too few DPS paladins out there.

[bandyman1]

hmm... Maybe we should do this kind of thing on khyber... Get a DPS Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger. Everyone goes in with only self buffs and no healer. Whoever gets the most kills before dieing wins.

I think the best of each class i can think of on khyber is

Fighter: ???? alot of good fighters, but not any DPS ones that really stand out

Barbarian: Malidini comes to mind, he would be a good pick i think

Ranger: Either Squal, or Infidel. Both **** good rangers.

Paladin: I feel kinda bad nominating my paladin, but there are simply too few DPS paladins out there.

Geez, you wouldn't stack the odds in your favor, would ya? I mean, that's kinda the benefit to a paladin, you know, self-healing? Just like the benefit of the barb is unmatched DPS.

[Xundrin]

if anyone wants to make any friendly wagers before the contest feel free to pm me. I offer the following odds:


Jellybean: -250
other fighter: +200

for those of you who are unfamiliar with the system:
you want jelly bean to win you put up 250 to win 100
you want other guy to win you put up 100 to win 200

no friendly wager will be accepted until the plat transfers hands.

if someone knows the exact number (round about) of possible kills in madstone, we can do a point spread instead

[PurdueDave]

if anyone wants to make any friendly wagers before the contest feel free to pm me. I offer the following odds:


Jellybean: -250
other fighter: +200

for those of you who are unfamiliar with the system:
you want jelly bean to win you put up 250 to win 100
you want other guy to win you put up 100 to win 200

no friendly wager will be accepted until the plat transfers hands.

if someone knows the exact number (round about) of possible kills in madstone, we can do a point spread instead

You should clarify if a Jellybean win constitutes > 2/1 kill margin vs. the fighter, as noted in the posts, or a straight kill win.

[Xundrin]

You should clarify if a Jellybean win constitutes > 2/1 kill margin vs. the fighter, as noted in the posts, or a straight kill win.

2/1 kill margin vs fighter,

[sigtrent]

I'd say they both need to use equivilent weapons of the same type, or if that isn't possible +5 stock weapons of prefered type.

Otherwise gear is really going to play a huge factor. Sword of Shadows is not a "build" neither are dual Wounding/Puncturing rapiers.

[NightbirdX]

Might I suggest Madstone Crater Elite? It's a long enough quest to get a good sample size and has a nice mix of hefty monsters.

The bet is simple. You have to get at least half the kills of Jellybean.

If you do, I will publically humble myself with an "I was wrong" statement on this forum (better yet a new one) and side with the fighters against Shade and other Barbarian lovers.

When you... I mean if you lose, you need to join the Barbarian bandwagon and help us spread the truth that Fighters are currently gimped compared to pure Barbarians. No more talk about how "fighters can hold their own", etc. This should be easy as you will have experienced first hand how an uber fighter couldn't even muster half the kills of an elven Barbarian.

Sounds good. I work Friday and saturday nights, but depending on your schedule, I play early morning Eastern standard time, normally 7-10am after work, or we can do it sunday evening. If those times don't work, we can work something else out and set up a time.

I don't think we should put limitations on weapon types. I think that starts to restrict the challenge a little much. I can make a full list of the weapons I use, I have nothing to hide.

I do believe that Barbarians are the top DD's, but like Grenfell, I really don't think that the margin is that great vs. a 2h DPS Ftr. But, myself being an experienced gamer, and D & D player, I think this will be fun to see what will happen. Am I nervous that I might actually get slayed and humiliated? Sure I am, but I really don't think that it is going to go like that. But of course, first and foremost I am a man, and can give credit where credit is due, and will be the first to post a forum on both the Fighter and Barbarian forums with the results of the contest, and either my humble congratulations, or gracefully accept Renegade's humble congratulations.

[Shade]

Basically, a Barbarian (or any higher DPS character) getting 3 times the kills of another high DPS character is usually symptomatic of a team that doesn't quite work together as well as it could (I definitely fall into this category). This doesn't mean to blame the barbarian for being 'selfish' or whatnot. It just means that kill count doesn't equal contribution to melee combat.

No its not, like I said its due to have a far higher run speed.
None of your scenario would happen in any groups im in. 8 mobs ahead? .. All 8 are dead before the fighter gets there, there nothing for him to damage for me to "steal".

And in terms of a team working together.. Sometimes my teams prefer I run ahead so we can do the quest faster.. Infact they usualy expect it.

Re: imposing a set of stupid rules then competing for kill count. Thats just the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Competing for kills can be fun, but why would you set some kind of rules of what can be done to skew things in your favor? Thats just like automatically admitting your ******** and can only perform under ideal conditions.

No one really cares if its rigged in your favor. Do it normally with no rules. The game shows the score and makes the rules, we don't need to go any further then that.

[Renegade66]

Let's shoot for Saturday morning then. I should be on Jellybean around 8am EST. I've found a couple guys to help so far. Since I know them, I'm instructing them to heal normally, but if there's any question to heal you first. If you have a caster and cleric you want to bring that would be cool too.

Sounds good. I work Friday and saturday nights, but depending on your schedule, I play early morning Eastern standard time, normally 7-10am after work, or we can do it sunday evening. If those times don't work, we can work something else out and set up a time.

I don't think we should put limitations on weapon types. I think that starts to restrict the challenge a little much. I can make a full list of the weapons I use, I have nothing to hide.

I do believe that Barbarians are the top DD's, but like Grenfell, I really don't think that the margin is that great vs. a 2h DPS Ftr. But, myself being an experienced gamer, and D & D player, I think this will be fun to see what will happen. Am I nervous that I might actually get slayed and humiliated? Sure I am, but I really don't think that it is going to go like that. But of course, first and foremost I am a man, and can give credit where credit is due, and will be the first to post a forum on both the Fighter and Barbarian forums with the results of the contest, and either my humble congratulations, or gracefully accept Renegade's humble congratulations.

[loki523]

First off, on Madstone elite, I'm pretty sure there are only a handful of people in game that can even get 20% of Jellybean's kills much less beat him. That said, I know I can do it on my ranger I just haven't pulled it off. Closest I came was 10 less kills but I was dead for a significant portion of one of the seer fights (prior to that I was up by 10).

Secondly, anyone on Thelanis think their straight fighter can beat my battle cleric solo? I want to make some money too...