Barb Vs. 2h Ftr

[NightbirdX]

I posted this in the Fighter Forums also, but being a fighter myself, I know how jaded towards other damage dealers we can be, so I decided to get the other side of the coin from the Barbs :P Ty in advance for your input.

I am just finishing up my Dwarven Tactical Fighter. Loads of fun to play. But, along the way I decided I wanted a Two Handed Fighter or Barbarian also. It looks insanely fun to swing a huge piece of metal and cut things in twain. I like the looks of a Barbarian. Pure hate and discontent unleashed upon the lands, and the Two Handed Fighter, master of offensive feats. I have been hearing that in Pure Numbers alone a Barb will own anyone. I have never played a barby so don't really know the mechanics of it. Is it pure pwnage from the extra Str? Does a 2h Ftr even have a chance vs the Barb? Do the added offensive feats make up for the lower Str?

Any input would be appreciated and if someone could show some numbers I'd appreciate that too. Not a good numbers person myself. /cheers

[EinarMal]

Well in terms of strength a maxed out human fighter could hit 18 + 3 Levels +4 Enhancements +3 Tome + 6 Item = 34 (32 more likely).

Now consider grtr weapon spec adds +4 to damage or the equivalent of 8 more strength bringing the "effective" strength of the fighter to around 40 (which is pretty close to the raging Barb).

The difference really is critical rage II which increases the threat range of a weapon by +2. That is what the fighter cannot match. In general the Barb will also have more hit points, DR boost, and better will saves as well.

[tihocan]

Barb will do better (from a pure DPS point-of-view) mostly due to the higher strength while raged, the higher con, and critical rage enhancements. Since your AC will probably be low without a shield, DR also helps.
Looks like I just repeated the above post

[Renegade66]

Fighters are obsolete at the moment.

[Casta]

I have a few fighters, none can come anywhere near my barbs damage, he can hit for as much as a 1 hand fighter can crit. I don't have a pure damage two handed fighter but with half as many crits i can't see one getting more damage then me.

[ErgonomicCat]

And then there's always barb 10/fighter 4 or barb 12/fighter 2....

[Shade]

And then there's always barb 10/fighter 4 or barb 12/fighter 2....

Or you could go rogue4/bard6/barb4.

[Strakeln]

And then there's always barb 10/fighter 4 or barb 12/fighter 2....

Pretty sure the highest possible str in the game comes from a barb12/ftr2.

[PurdueDave]

I have a few fighters, none can come anywhere near my barbs damage, he can hit for as much as a 1 hand fighter can crit. I don't have a pure damage two handed fighter but with half as many crits i can't see one getting more damage then me.

Yeah. The crit difference is the killer.

[Casta]

Pretty sure the highest possible str in the game comes from a barb12/ftr2.

It would, but str isn't always damage. Crit rage 2 will give you much more damage then fighter str 1.

[Slayer918]

18 base +6 item +3 levels +3 fighter enhancement +2 tome = 32 str +2 rage potion +4 madstone boots means maximum of 38 str... now GWS IS NOT EQUAL TO +8 STR WHEN THF BECAUSE OF x1.5... thats a mistake I see a lot of people make... so fighters have the equivelent of 44 str (+6 equivelent from GWS)... compared to a barb 18 base +6 item +3 level +2 tome +10 rage +2 rage potion +4 madstone rage = 45 so if your human then u could reach 46 str on a barb w/ only a +2 tome... however while it may look like you could then reach 46 equivelent on a human w/ a +3 tome... you actually cant then ur really sitting halfway between 44 and 46 (complicated I know but trust me it works out...)... so then Barbs get critical rage 2... makes a difference it DPS... pretty big 1 actually especially using greataxes...

I would say go 12/2 fighter/barb... for 3 min per rest you can actually hit the equivelent of 48 str... if your dwarf ur looking at probably 500-550 hp... now some barbs can beat that... not all can tho... saves... go to the barb... but a dwarf fighter can still get 20+ will save pretty easily... feats to spare on iron will... If your a twich player you can pick up cleave and great cleave but I would make THF line/Power attack/toughness/GWS/GWF/iron will more of a priority...

2 levels of barb also gets you access to barb power attack 1 which means ur only +4 damage behind the barb instead of +6... you wont miss w/ this guy unless ur debuffed and what not... (not saying barbs do just saying there is no reason not to take PA enhancement because its basicly +2 free damage)

A barb will be better... but then who doesn't have a barb nowadays? lol

When fighters can get there hands on l33t gear they can hit pretty ****ing hard... just not quite as hard as barbs...

[Strakeln]

It would, but str isn't always damage. Crit rage 2 will give you much more damage then fighter str 1.

Agreed, but there are more advantages to 2 levels of fighter than just one point of strength. 2 feats; full plate and tower shield proficiency; item defense; and melee alacrity enhancement, for example. Not to mention that crit rage 2 will still be there if Turbine ever gets past level 14

I will admit that I may have hosed myself for level 20, it really depends on what barbarian enhancements are available at that time.

[Khurse]

Agreed, but there are more advantages to 2 levels of fighter than just one point of strength. 2 feats; full plate
<snip>

CAn Barabarians use all their abilities if they're wearing heavy armour?

[Strakeln]

CAn Barabarians use all their abilities if they're wearing heavy armour?

Yep.

I think at one time there were calls to make a change similar to the evasion change, but I didn't see anything at d20srd.org that talked about losing bonuses due to heavy armor.

[Casta]

1barb 18 base +6 item +3 level +2 tome +10 rage +2 rage potion +4 madstone rage = 45

Barb rage and the madstone rage clicky don't stack, you cant use one while your in the other iv tried so your only at 43.

[Strakeln]

Barb rage and the madstone rage clicky don't stack, you cant use one while your in the other iv tried so your only at 43.

Incorrect. They do stack. You just need to do it in a different order: madstone clickie rage, then barbarian rage.

[Strakeln]

It would, but str isn't always damage. Crit rage 2 will give you much more damage then fighter str 1.

Well, I found something interesting. The 1st melee alacrity boost puts a barb12/ftr2 at a higher DPS rate than a barbarian 14 with the +2 to crit threat range.

Here's the data and graph from the damage calculator: link. Note that I left both barbarians as equal except for the crit range and swing rate (so I did not take into consideration the extra point of str). Also note that the alacrity enhancement is a boost, so this argument only concerns max DPS, not max sustainable DPS.

What this means is that for periods of time, a barb12/ftr2 will be able to out-DPS a full barbarian, despite the smaller crit range.

[Casta]

Incorrect. They do stack. You just need to do it in a different order: madstone clickie rage, then barbarian rage.

Ok but its only 2 min per shrine so standing str is around 36 and 44 max.

[Shade]

What this means is that for periods of time, a barb12/ftr2 will be able to out-DPS a full barbarian, despite the smaller crit range.

No it doesn't. It means your graph is wrong. You cannot begin to properly calculate the difference in crit range and speed thru a simple graph, DDO is far more complex then that.

Your graph says the characters max crit is 100, and he hits 100 times in a minuit.. Both highly innacurate.

[Strakeln]

No it doesn't. It means your graph is wrong. You cannot begin to properly calculate the difference in crit range and speed thru a simple graph, DDO is far more complex then that.

Your graph says the characters max crit is 100, and he hits 100 times in a minuit.. Both highly innacurate.

I think you should look a little more carefully at what we're comparing here. You can change the number of swings per minute to whatever you would like, so long as #2 is 15% more than #1... but guess what? While the curves will shift up or down, their position in relation to one another will remain the same. Same goes for the crit and non-crit damage, except that they need to remain equal to each other. Keep in mind that this is comparing the damage output of two very similar builds, the main point of the comparison being a 15% boost to attack speed vs a 5% boost to crit range.

Remember that we are talking about Damage Per Second, not damage per swing. The graph does not indicate a max crit anywhere in the data. It does indicate an average, non-power attack crit value (102).

Something I did think about though, if we're talking about boosts, I should give the straight barbarian their damage boost... since the barb12/fighter2 would not be able to use that boost at the same time as the alacrity boost.

The graph points out an additional side effect I did not think of. You'll note that the barb12/fighter2 (#2) DPS drops for higher AC mobs earlier than the straight barbarian. At first this doesn't make sense... the two have the same to-hit bonus. But if you think about it, it makes perfect sense - since #2 is swinging more often, he will roll lower than the mob's AC more often.

You should take a closer look at what that graph shows, and consider the purpose of the comparison. As far as DDO being "far more complex" than a bunch of crunched numbers resulting in a graph, you should note that DDO is nothing but that. As such, its behavior over time is predictable down to every last point of damage.