Barb Vs. 2h Ftr

[Strakeln]

Ok but its only 2 min per shrine so standing str is around 36 and 44 max.

Really depends on your definition of standing strength. Running around town? Heading into battle? My barb heads into battle at 40 str minimum (17 base + 3 lvl + 1 ftr enh + 6 item + 6 rage + 4 power rage + 1 tome + 2 rage spell = 40).

As far as max strength, are you talking max possible strength in the game? Because it's not 44. Leaving out alchemical bonuses, I think the highest possible is a 48, with a human barb 12/fighter 2:

18 base
6 item
6 rage
4 power rage
3 tome
3 level
2 rage
2 madstone clickie
2 madstone boot on-hit
1 fighter str enhancement
1 human versatility
= 48

There might be some other combination that allows for a higher strength, but I can't think of it now.

[nbhs275]

WF pally can make an exceptional THF.

Str hits 40

18 base
3 level
3 tome
6 item
2 rage
4 madstone
4 bladesworn
__________
40

then 3 damage from DF, 4 from bladesworn, then 16 from PA.

Easily 2d6+42 standing, with 2d6+51 Buffed. Nevermind the advantage of being able to have a 45+ AC while doing this.

One other thing i can give you is this. DO NOT, take the THF feats. The splash damage is a decent increase to dps, but only effect those types of attacks. Which means whenever you throw on a shield, you lose the benefit. I find Cleave and Great Cleave enhance DPS alot more, giving area damage. Plus it works with one handers.

[Strakeln]

One other thing i can give you is this. DO NOT, take the THF feats. The splash damage is a decent increase to dps, but only effect those types of attacks. Which means whenever you throw on a shield, you lose the benefit. I find Cleave and Great Cleave enhance DPS alot more, giving area damage. Plus it works with one handers.

I never tried out the THF feats, but I certainly love my cleave and great cleave! Great for agro management as well as damage.

[Renegade66]

Really depends on your definition of standing strength. Running around town? Heading into battle? My barb heads into battle at 40 str minimum (17 base + 3 lvl + 1 ftr enh + 6 item + 6 rage + 4 power rage + 1 tome + 2 rage spell = 40).

As far as max strength, are you talking max possible strength in the game? Because it's not 44. Leaving out alchemical bonuses, I think the highest possible is a 48, with a human barb 12/fighter 2:

18 base
6 item
6 rage
4 power rage
3 tome
3 level
2 rage
2 madstone clickie
2 madstone boot on-hit
1 fighter str enhancement
1 human versatility
= 48

There might be some other combination that allows for a higher strength, but I can't think of it now.

Forgot the +3 STR Potion. 51 Max STR for your Barb/Ftr. 50 Max STR if you choose not to gimp your Barbarian with levels of fighter and go straight barbarian.

[Strakeln]

Forgot the +3 STR Potion. 51 Max STR for your Barb/Ftr. 50 Max STR if you choose not to gimp your Barbarian with levels of fighter and go straight barbarian.

I didn't forget it (note how I said "leaving out alchemical bonuses"). And I'd find it hard for you to justify barb12/ftr2 as gimped (see discussion above... there are huge benefits to 2 levels of fighter). Talking about barb18/ftr2, you might have a reasonable stance.

[Stealthbr]

Can someone tell me some advantages of a pure 2handed fighter over a pure barbarian or am I going to have to delete my 2H fighter and start a barbarian?

[NightbirdX]

Lol thats pretty much why I started this thread, to find out the advantages to both. It doesn't seem that there are very many advantages to a 2h Figther though. The only ones I can really think of are with all the feats that you can get as a fighter, you can specialize in different areas, such as a dwarven tactics fighter specializing in stunning, tripping, etc. From what I have gathered, the offensive feats a Fighter gets, won't put you over a Barb's DPS, so I was trying to think what feats would be worth taking that would make you want to go 2h Ftr vs going Barb. Not really coming up with any. I guess you could use the extra feats to make yourself more defensive also for turtle situations, but meh seems like I am stretching it thin just to say that a 2h Ftr is just as good as a Barb.

Don't get me wrong, I like 2h Fighters. I have a good friend that has a great 2h Ftr build that can stand tall with the best of them and still has great AC to stay alive, but in terms of raw unbridled power, its looking like the Barb will win.

[Shade]

you should note that DDO is nothing but that. As such, its behavior over time is predictable down to every last point of damage.

Your a nerd.

You might see DDO as a set of numbers and calculations, but I don't.

Im a gamer. And also a IT expert. I know that computers are not an exact science, many different, uncalculable factors run in every software, especially ones dealing with complex online activities. If everything was so exact, the titan wouldnt have been fixed 5+ times for problems the devs didn't even understand.

As such, the biggest thing that is plain wrong with the conclusion based on a linear formula is that DDO is not linear.

The number of swings I make in 1 minuits is never the same, it constantly changes based on many factors. Having a straight 15% boost is great, but its not a straight 15% more dps boost, not nearly. I have that exact boost on my fighter and my rogue and I know how it works and how it doesnt work. I know my bab9 rogue swings faster then my bab14 fighter, and as such works allot better for him.

Point is put the multiclass and pure guy in the same quest and I gaurentee no one will say the multiclass guy is better dps. Constant increase to crits, which often kill mobs in 1-3 hits provides far more overall boost to killrate then a limited 20 second boost. The boost does give the higher DPS in some cases, but to just say it always does, its flawed logic.

[nbhs275]

I think the fighter would have the advantage of being able to fit both the THF line and power attack, cleave, great cleave. Plus, being able to bring your AC much higher while 2handing has the advantage of not needing a wet nurse in non-gianthold quests.

I will mock up a build and post it in the fighter forums.

[Strakeln]

Your a nerd.

Takes one to know one!

Im a gamer. And also a IT expert. I know that computers are not an exact science, many different, uncalculable factors run in every software, especially ones dealing with complex online activities. If everything was so exact, the titan wouldnt have been fixed 5+ times for problems the devs didn't even understand.

"IT expert" explains your viewpoint a bit, I think. I'm a computer scientist, and as such, I don't see it the same way as you. To me, computers are an exact science, and all factors in software are calcuable. After all, it's the programmer who programmed it to act that way... the software didn't write itself. Bugs in software are shortcomings of the programming process used, not quirks that happen just because it is software.

As such, the biggest thing that is plain wrong with the conclusion based on a linear formula is that DDO is not linear.

For this comparison, it is. Obviously enough, it is a hypothetical situation, where both characters are fighting the exact same mob, using the exact same equipment, etc. But you seem to be thinking I'm interpreting this as a constant, which I'm not. The graph shows performance over time. Consider it to be something akin to the graph created over 4 years of swinging, instead of running around in one instance.

The number of swings I make in 1 minuits is never the same, it constantly changes based on many factors. Having a straight 15% boost is great, but its not a straight 15% more dps boost, not nearly. I have that exact boost on my fighter and my rogue and I know how it works and how it doesnt work. I know my bab9 rogue swings faster then my bab14 fighter, and as such works allot better for him.

Sure, I'll admit that it may not be a 15% boost. Change the number to whatever you feel like, the graph will probably show the same thing for anything over 10%.

Point is put the multiclass and pure guy in the same quest and I gaurentee no one will say the multiclass guy is better dps.

Pfft. You know as well as I do it depends waaay more on the equipment and skill of the player behind the character than whether or not there is a splash of multiclass.

Constant increase to crits, which often kill mobs in 1-3 hits provides far more overall boost to killrate then a limited 20 second boost. The boost does give the higher DPS in some cases, but to just say it always does, its flawed logic.

Read back over my posts. Did I say that it always applies? No. In fact, here is what I said, in the very same post where I put the link to the graph: "Also note that the alacrity enhancement is a boost, so this argument only concerns max DPS, not max sustainable DPS."

Stop trying to say that the graph (incorrectly) shows more than what it does. I'll try to clarify it again for you: The graph shows that, all other things being equal, a 15% attack speed boost will out-DPS a 5% increase crit range when using the sword of shadows. It does not say anything more than that.

[Stealthbr]

I guess my 2H Fighter will probably have better saves, better AC (not very decent though), cleave and great cleave in the near future and extra feat slots while the barbarian will be doing more dps, 10% barbarian speed, and some DR.

[mgoldb2]

I guess my 2H Fighter will probably have better saves, better AC (not very decent though), cleave and great cleave in the near future and extra feat slots while the barbarian will be doing more dps, 10% barbarian speed, and some DR.

Explain to me how a 2H fighter would have better saves. They on exact same progression as barbarians base wise. Barbarians get enhancements to increase will save while rage which is most of the time. Improve uncanny dodge for running thought traps etc when needed. Fort save will be higher on a barb due to huge con bonus when raging.

The only advantage a fighter might have is to be able to spend some feats on saves but they still properly fall behind a barb in saves.

[Stealthbr]

How much will save do barbarians get with rage? Also indomitable will only works against enchantments. I see what you mean with the fortitude though. Also, what about the spells that require a reflex save? You wont have improved uncanny dodge all the time and you can always get hit by surprise. Your not a rogue so you cant spot a trap also. Also, the barbarian can use little action points on the will save enhancement because they have little points to spend after getting all the main barbarian enhancements.

[mgoldb2]

How much will save do barbarians get with rage? Also indomitable will only works against enchantments. I see what you mean with the fortitude though. Also, what about the spells that require a reflex save? You wont have improved uncanny dodge all the time and you can always get hit by surprise. Your not a rogue so you cant spot a trap also. Also, the barbarian can use little action points on the will save enhancement because they have little points to spend after getting all the main barbarian enhancements.

Indomitable will is +4 and correct it only enchantments but can you name one will save check you ever made that was not an enchantment. I have tested the +4 even applies to mind blast from flayers. Which leave me not able to thing of anything it don’t apply too.

What do fighters get that could even match the +4 bonus?

Traps I don’t see am still getting a +4 reflex save bonus, barbarians get trap sense. At level 14 it +4 (will go up too +5 at level 15)

Spells am even with a fighter I suppose (when not using uncanny) but not seeing why a fighter would have more then me.

Now explain to me what bonus a fighter get that allow him to have higher saves or even keep up.

[Stealthbr]

Finger of death, PK, and disintegrate i believe are all spell checks. What about Chain lightning, fireball, cone of cold, earthgrab etc.? Those are all reflex saves that you really cant rely on improved uncanny dodge because monsters can use it all the time and you really dont know when they will use it. Does the barbarian get +2 will save with rage at lvl 14 w/o enhancements? My fighter has spare feat slots and action points to take iron will and luck of heroes which is +3 and +3 (not counting the +2 size bonus thing) from the dwarven enhancements while the barbarian has a small amount of spare points.

[Shade]

Yea indomitable will rocks. Only spell I know it doesn't work vs is bestow curse. Which is un-important as you can fix that with a quick potion.

Barbarians can easily aford the adittional will rage bonuses too, but there unneassary with indomitable will. Personally I maxxed dwarven spell resist instead.. So I get +5 from that, +3 from rage, +4 from indomitable will.

Then for reflex, you should consider that most barbarians go for more dex then fighters for obvious reasons. (medium armor vs heavy, ftrs have less skill points and often want combat exp so they go for INT over Dex)
Then barbarians get +6 reflex, for 2minuits per shrine with no cooldown - it can add up to over 80% of your important reflex saves if you time it well.

Then fort.. +6 con greater rage, and another +2 hearty rage.. Thats 8 con over a fighter, or 4 fort save. Often another +1 for rage potions, which many fighter avoid in favor of more AC.

[bandyman1]

Finger of death, PK, and disintegrate i believe are all spell checks. What about Chain lightning, fireball, cone of cold, earthgrab etc.? Those are all reflex saves that you really cant rely on improved uncanny dodge because monsters can use it all the time and you really dont know when they will use it. Does the barbarian get +2 will save with rage at lvl 14 w/o enhancements? My fighter has spare feat slots and action points to take iron will and luck of heroes which is +3 and +3 (not counting the +2 size bonus thing) from the dwarven enhancements while the barbarian has a small amount of spare points.

FoD, Pk, and Disentegrate are all fort saves ( PK you get a will, then a fort ), and it's already established the barb has higher Con. What about the reflex saves? They are the same base as your fighter without uncanny dodge. So again, where do you come up with better saves?

[Stealthbr]

Hmmm well you folks just convinced me to change my character. Let the re-rolling begin! Guess Grandpa Joe is no longer a fighter and is now a barbarian! I wish there was still the name Raged Joe avaible though =*(.

[nbhs275]

I still feel that DPS is very mixed in this game. Speed factors in, Actual damage matters, To hit, crit range and multiplier, all play a part in damage output. But the one alot of people forget is survivablity. If your AC is 12 and you don't have perm-displace your gunna be chugging potions more then attacking.

Now a barbarian does the extreme damage, but has the need for a wetnurse more often then not. A fighter can get DPS nearly as good (70-90% depend on builds) with an AC of 35-40ish, enough to prevent a good amount of damage.

BUT, as i said else where, a well built offensive paladin can outdo both these classes overall.

[Katianara]

Your a nerd.

You're. You're also posting on a D&D forum about if a Fighter outdamages a Barbarian, so I'm fairly certain you're not jet-setting the swingers circuit right now IT EXPERT

You might see DDO as a set of numbers and calculations, but I don't.

Which is too bad, because the only thing that matters when figuring out a theoretical maximum on DPS is by using methods such as Thott's graph. If you spent half the time you did posting on these forums as you did thinking about the theory behind it you'd get a lot farther.

Im a gamer. And also a IT expert. I know that computers are not an exact science, many different, uncalculable factors run in every software, especially ones dealing with complex online activities. If everything was so exact, the titan wouldnt have been fixed 5+ times for problems the devs didn't even understand.

AN IT EXPERT.

And you've completed the trifecta