Range vs. Melee - what's to argue?

[Mercules]

I've never, not once, not ever, since the game went live, seen a character who only ranged and outkilled a competent melee in any quest.

What you should do is learn how to mix melee with range appropriately. The game mechanics are not going to change anytime soon.

Then you need to get out more, because it happens very regularly in the lower levels of the game. I had one melee tank go Zerg on me and start sucking up Clerical resources because my Heavy Repeater fighter was out killing him 2-1(only noticed after wondering why we was Zerging) in WW. I know that changes in the higher levels of the game, but in the low levels a solid Repeater Build can drop a lot of mobs quickly with very little risk to the character.

[rpasell]

Instead of dropping ammo, I'd love to see bows like this with 10% slaying chance. I can think of Undead Slaying bow with the same stats, and more.

It's called a Disruptor

[Puke]

It's called a Disruptor

I know. I have one on a bow and two light weapons that I TWF with. I prefer to use the melee version. However, the Disruption is based on a save and at higher difficulty level, those saves are rarely missed. If I understand the dagger correctly, it's a 10% slaying chance. Also, it'd have the Greater Undead Bane so you'd be doing 3d6 damage if that slayer didn't go off. And if it is a +4 Bow like the dagger is a +4 dagger, it'd be a +8 vs that enemy type. Quite different from a Disruptor if you think about it. Right?

It's just an idea and it doesn't have to be relegated to just Giants and I threw Undead out there as an idea but it doesn't have to relegated to them either. But then, I do not have one of these daggers and maybe I misunderstand how it works. If that is the case, my suggestion is rescinded. Still, point is, I think they can do a little better with the bows which would bring them close to on par with Vorpals and this Giant Slayer Dagger and more.

[PaintHorseCowboy]

Shoot, there are times that someone can see my character and ranges HIM when I can't see him at all yet. This is no more apparant than the Dwarfs over Ataraxia's Haven...the ones around that pit with the elevator down.

I'm not picking a fight but I have to add my two cents for a little levity here.

Maybe you should oil your armor once in a while so you don't squeek so much.

*****

I think the crux of this matter lies in the simple realization that not every toon, every build, or every player is going to be the superior killer in every single quest. When people realize this and have the strength to get over themselves enough to say, "So what if I didn't lead the kill count? But I contributed to the party by ... ." then you will see an end to this type of discussion. Do I believe this will ever happen? Not by a long shot... .

Kill counts are, in my opinion, mostly worthless anyway. If you need an example of why I believe this is so, run with my wizard sometime. I will show you that just because I have the highest kill count, doesn't mean I was the one doing the most work. Yes, this is called sniping when done by a caster and unless I miss my guess, it irritates most tanks. However, it seems the reverse is looked at as being perfectly acceptable. The caster has control of the mobs, is doing a fine job kiting them through his damage area, and none of the tanks are getting damaged, yet they charge in and "steal" the kill. Did they really do all the work on that kill or did they just kick them in the shin and because the caster had been baking them at 450 degrees for 30 seconds, the mobs happened to die? All kill counts really measure is how many times you were fortunate enough to land the final blow. It doesn't necessarily mean you did the most DPS to that mob or that you contributed more to the quest than any other player. If you think this is so, try telling that to the PUG Cleric you picked up for VON-5. That because he didn't kill anything he didn't contribute to your quest since without him, you were stuck at the double doors. Or try telling that to the caster who just buffed the holy living heck out of you so that you could survive 2 minutes of toe-to-toe combat with some insidious foe and without whose buffs you would have dropped like like a fruit fly.

Yes, at times the ranger is going to out DPS any fighting build out there. At other times, they're going to get out-killed because the geography of the quest conspires against ranged combat. That's why they make multiple quests where multiple builds can excell.

Yes, there are some known issues with ranged combat such as shots not registering as an attack or the inability to target a hostile and have the shot hit when your target is moving laterally. Chalk them up to the vagaries of combat until they are able to fix them. Either that, or learn to attack mobs without using the auto-target. Then you can use Kentucky Windage to lead and put rounds on target.

But getting back to the point at hand, no one single attack method is the best for every situation. If you think that it is, go watch Discovery Channel on some of the latest weapons being developed. New weapons and new methods of employment (tactics) are constantly being developed due to changes in enemy doctrine, strategy, or tactics. You can't take out a tank with a machine gun so against a rifle company, the tank may be the kill count leader. Conversely, it's very difficult to take out a ground-attack aircraft with a tank. Even a whole column of armor doesn't stand much of a chance (without the addition of other elements) against an A-10 Thunderbolt.

So if you want to be successful, Diomedes was absolutely correct. A balance of the two, utilizing the strengths (granted feats) of the Ranger class, is your best bet.

Remember, flexible is far too rigid for combat. In combat, you need to be fluid.

[Jaysensen]

Or...

Maybe you need a better bow.

Nothing like watching 5-6 things all disappear in one shot when, for example, you use good tactics and zap a whole line of mummys with a disrupting bow.

You can do the same with a Vorpal especially with Glancing Blows and WW/Cleave etc... And then factor in the better attack rate and scaling attack bonus...

[Okita]

I've never, not once, not ever, since the game went live, seen a character who only ranged and outkilled a competent melee in any quest.

What you should do is learn how to mix melee with range appropriately. The game mechanics are not going to change anytime soon.

really? everytime i've ever ran Kobold Assault (ever!) if there was a ranged party member in the group they've always outkilled everyone else.

If need be I know I've got a SS somewhere of my ranger that was lvl 2 when everyone else in the party was at least a three...I outkilled everyone else by a longshot... and never needed a heal.

[Fetchi]

mm, maybe because people play at levels before clerics get destruct, before anyone can use vorpals, before mages get pk, etc...

maybe because rangers solo...

maybe because you've never played a ranger that could easily outkill everyone else in the party...

maybe because you don't play a ranged character you don't really understand ranged players frustrations...

My 1st character to max level is a ranger - and i have a maxed out cleric - and i have a maxed out wf wizard - so - yes - i think i understand what im talking about.

[Fetchi]

Or...

Maybe you need a better bow.

Nothing like watching 5-6 things all disappear in one shot when, for example, you use good tactics and zap a whole line of mummys with a disrupting bow.

The tanks just go....*** just happened?

Meanwhile, you're racking up the kill count if that really matters to you. Otherwise, maybe you should focus on being a party support toon, crowd control, or insta-kills (slayer or greater-slayer arrows), etc.

Your call.

The best bow in the game still remains the level 6 Silver bow - i have practically every bow in the game- next?

[GeneralDiomedes]

I outkilled all melee in Kobold Assault with my Ranger/Rogue 2 kills to 1 using only my bow (stayed back with cleric and caster).

That's actually a good example, probably the only one.

However if the melee were hanging out by the spawn spot you would have problems outkilling them. I also once ran it with Expeditous Retreat on my battle bard and roasted the ranged char by 3 to 1 (i could run around faster than he could kill and re-target).

I wonder if my 'competant' caveat would cover that ..

[Mercules]

That's actually a good example, probably the only one.

However if the melee were hanging out by the spawn spot you would have problems outkilling them. I also once ran it with Expeditous Retreat on my battle bard and roasted the ranged char by 3 to 1 (i could run around faster than he could kill and re-target).

I wonder if my 'competant' caveat would cover that ..

Probably. Smart ranged combat players use targeting on one mob while pointing their reticle at another nearby mob. Shots go towards the targeted mob until it drops and then they go straight out hitting the one you are pointing at. this way you don't waste shots while retargeting.

[Puke]

I'm not picking a fight but I have to add my two cents for a little levity here.

Maybe you should oil your armor once in a while so you don't squeek so much.

LOL. Too much oil and I slide down the hill.

Actually, some may not know what I talk about. But I experienced this here more than other places where if you target a dwarf and range him and then run away until he dissapears from your view and your target window, he'll keep shooting at you and hitting you. They can target farther than players can.

[Muirtach]

My favorite person to play with was my best friend Nessa. He played a pure SoTR Ranger for the most part, largely DPS. Together the two of us could Handle virtually anything which came our way (Int and Cha runes were a bit of a problem, my barb would the Wis ones). The reason was simple.

If Melee and Ranged work together as opposed for personal glory (kill counts) you are just as, if not more, devastating as a group of rogues sneak attacking together. Every group of things we came upon was already softened up to the point where I only needed a swing or two to finish them off and if it was a more rough group he would kite them around while my spring-attacking, fleet-footed slaughter machine would follow up the back side of the train until we met at the middle. Kind of like Lady and the Tramp, but more intestines and less spaghetti.

Don't sweat the kill count really, only the self conscious worry about that. A ranged fighter is a boon to any party it joins, even if they don't realize it.

[Muirtach]

You can do the same with a Vorpal especially with Glancing Blows and WW/Cleave etc... And then factor in the better attack rate and scaling attack bonus...

Just a FYI, vorpal's don't work on glancing blows. They did for a short period, but that was a bug and was fixed.

[PaintHorseCowboy]

LOL. Too much oil and I slide down the hill.

Actually, some may not know what I talk about. But I experienced this here more than other places where if you target a dwarf and range him and then run away until he dissapears from your view and your target window, he'll keep shooting at you and hitting you. They can target farther than players can.

Yeah, that happens in BTG also. Grab the stupid arcus' agro with whatever, run back to the gate, toss down another fire wall and then yell in your best Forrest Gump voice, "SOMETHING BIT ME!"

Those guys are uncannily accurate. I tell you, sure seems like if I'm displaced, their 50% miss is more like 5%. And our 50% miss if they're displaced is more like 95%. Well..it's got a 5 in it so close enough, right?

You're definately right, they have us out-ranged.

What ever happened to Murphy's Laws of Combat? The very first rule was "If the enemy is in range, so are you."

I'm telling! They're not playing fair!

ROFLMAO

[GeneralDiomedes]

Then you need to get out more, because it happens very regularly in the lower levels of the game. I had one melee tank go Zerg on me and start sucking up Clerical resources because my Heavy Repeater fighter was out killing him 2-1(only noticed after wondering why we was Zerging) in WW. I know that changes in the higher levels of the game, but in the low levels a solid Repeater Build can drop a lot of mobs quickly with very little risk to the character.

LOL I play the low levels more than just about anybody. It doesn't happen unless you are comparing yourself to average players, which you obviously are.

[Mercules]

LOL I play the low levels more than just about anybody. It doesn't happen unless you are comparing yourself to average players, which you obviously are.

Obviously, because I couldn't happen to be right in any other way, right?

I think you are missing the point that Repeaters, especially ones with Elemental/PG Effects can do a lot of killing at levels 2-6. After that, they quickly loose usefulness at least in my experience.

[BUpcott]

My favorite person to play with was my best friend Nessa. He played a pure SoTR Ranger for the most part, largely DPS. Together the two of us could Handle virtually anything which came our way (Int and Cha runes were a bit of a problem, my barb would the Wis ones). The reason was simple.

*cough Jameela cough* (A.k.a. Baby Virtual Nessa)

[BUpcott]

My 1st character to max level is a ranger - and i have a maxed out cleric - and i have a maxed out wf wizard - so - yes - i think i understand what im talking about.

Maybe you should try a ranged ranger again since you didn't get it right the first time.

P.S. Kill count means nothing.

[Zenako]

1. All those weapon types on a melee weapon are much superior.
2. It's rare that you can range and never be touched. Things run onto you too quickly, or range back, or casters hit you with something nasty. The quests are just not geared towards ranging. Shoot, there are times that someone can see my character and ranges HIM when I can't see him at all yet. This is no more apparant than the Dwarfs over Ataraxia's Haven...the ones around that pit with the elevator down.

re 1., not superior just on a different weapon, where you WILL be subject to return blows.

re 2., Not never touched, but with a good ranged attacker (most often a Ranger), it is rare that I cannot spot a mob before they see me and get off attacks on them, often deadly, since they drop before they get in range. Archery has superior range to spells, and even if that caster closes in, virtually all long ranged attack spells are REF save based and Evasion generally makes them a moot point. I WANT to get the mob casters attention/aggro on me and not the rest of the party. I then move to away from the rest so those incoming spells, targeted on me, blast away harmlessly as I evade them.

For me the single biggest detriment to using effective ranged attacks is not game mechanics, but game play style choices for many players. Just as some players do not stay close to the clerics who could heal them, or wait to be in the Area of Effect for Mass Buff spells, those same players tend to rush forward and draw attention from the mobs before the party has really gotten in position or ready to most Efficiently use their resources to defeat the mob. Sure the mob dies, but the casters spent 10% of their mana killing it or curing party members. With different tactics, the same mob can be taken down with the consumption of MUCH fewer resources.

Much like rogues get gimped by play styles of many other players, ranged attack effectiveness gets gimped. If the parties were willing to consistently use the best tactics, there would be no running through traps and then healing up afterwards. Mobs would have to run to you, not you to them.

If ranged attacks are so "bad" why are some of the most feared attacks in the desert those being launched by the "uber gnoll archers?" Triple Damage crits DO HURT. Assuming that among their favored enemies are Humans, Elves, etc, that can also explain why those arrows hurt a LOT. I know the Giants I shoot REALLY do not like those triple digit numbers showing up.

[FluffyDucky]

For game balance ranged combat should never be the equal of melee. What would be the point in getting close enough to get hit if you can do the same damage from across the room? Ranged combat gives good damage dealt vs damage received and is useful to thin out or soften up a mob before it gets in melee range but once you're within swinging distance the bow should always lose to the sword.