So the raid loot whiners got their way...

[Starspawn]

They honestly can be. Get better tactics! Pick up 2 players to fill in your 4 man group and you might learn those tactics. I can look at all of the giant-hold, and there are some very hard quests, if you try to zerg your way through without thinking you're not going to beat it. Adding those two extra people can make a huge difference as well. I'vegone in there with a non twinked out guild group and ran a majority of those quests in a level 8-10 group, so I speak from experience. The same quests however can be an easy party wipe if you have one or two zerging-without-a-clue players. There are no quests a well run group cannot accomplish at any level, with medium non-raid equipment. The scaling difference everyone refers to is that the "everyone rush in and do whatever they think is best without any co-ordination tactic" will not work past level 7. The brainless zerg might still work if you twink out our toon.


They can, and should be able to. If they can't they need better tactics, and should go outside thier own group and try to learn them.

It appears that you have a preconception that the casual gaming group is a bunch of zergers or have no tactical expertise. I don't happen to agree but your suggestion is that the casual group get help from people who have put in the time to know the quests so well they can do them naked and blindfolded.

The problem is that's not fun. Sure I can listen and take orders well. Sure I can run through a dungeon and get max xp and loot per 10 to 15 minute speed quests. It's not my idea of fun. I'm guessing most casual groups feel the same way. You think the casual gamer is getting killed on normal missions cause they're zerging? We hate zergers. We want to get ready by gathering together in the inn and binding. We want to go through this new dungeon on normal (whatever the level of the dungeon) and we want to take it slow and complete the optionals if we can. We coordinate our spells and buff each other and send the rogue/ranger in to scout. We don't want to go through it 7 times quickly during our weekly gaming window.

Elite is boring for the power gamers. Elite is about where normal needs to be for most of us that have been playing for more than a few months. Most of the guild groups I run with don't bother with the normal or hard settings unless they are running toons in the adventure that are several levels below the expected norm. When a well run group of 4 non-twinked level 3-4's can run the tangleroot series on elite, and have a blast, normal is obviously not much of a challenge.


It means don't whine about not having a vorpal or smiter or tome like one of the above posters was doing because you have not invested the time. It means don't expect everything to be easy the first time through if you are not willing to learn the tactics required for the quest, or that the other players that breeze through it have learned.


If you play once a week as the above poster does for 3 hours a week than yes, it might take you years to get to the same level as the person that have invested 15 hours a week.


They should be able to. But like super mario, if you don't spend the time to figure out the game, you can beat your head against the wall forever.


It would be if getting level 14 meant that you also gained a measureed amount of knowlege by level 14... unfortunatly you can go run around the explorer areas and get alot of xp, but no knowledge on how to play the game.

This is the problem. You are saying that elite is the new normal. That is exactly what I am talking about. The old "normal" was and is fine for the casual gamer. However, "normal" has been becoming "old elite normal" and you're saying that this still isn't enough because you only run elite or normal/hard with substantially lower level characters.

What I wonder is why you don't think they can just leave normal alone and just beef up hard and elite. The casual player doesn't have capped characters that run the new missions 15 times each the first week a new module is out. The casual player doesn't then go strictly loot run to max out a capped character waiting for the next challenge. The casual player was having fun and being challenged and is now being dominated. Not Fun!

I don't even see the causal player complaining that some characters are clearly better equiped or more experienced. Just let us explore the game and play our way without basing "normal" difficulty by assuming that all characters are 32 point build with raid level equipment that will quickly learn the best way to run through the dungeon.

Remember when the desert came out and they had a higher death penalty. Everyone was screaming on the board that the penalty was too high. The powergamers were getting killed and losing levels trying to find the best way to beat the desert dungeons. I seem to remember a dev quote that and I'm paraphrasing "you can't expect to make it through the dungeons you didn't know without dying and losing xp until you got to know the dungeon." That's what "normal" is to the casual gamer now. We die alot and the only way to get that experience back is to do quests we've already done just to break even and buy back the potions and scrolls used. Heheh. And you can't even buy the scrolls cause the powergamers were using them to get more loot. But that's another dead horse.

Dirac just mentioned something that touched a nerve as a casual gamer and I responded. So did others. We aren't whining, just expressing an opinion from a perspective that doesn't get seen often on the boards.

Old "Normal" Fun!
New "Normal" Not so much fun for casual gamers (and apparently not much of a challenge to the powergamers either).

[Strali]

It appears that you have a preconception that the casual gaming group is a bunch of zergers or have no tactical expertise. I don't happen to agree but your suggestion is that the casual group get help from people who have put in the time to know the quests so well they can do them naked and blindfolded.

Not at all, what I'm saying is if your 4 man group cannot do the quests on normal, instead of asking for even easier quests, try to think outside the box, get help from a more experienced group, join a pug for the quest, join a guild of older players with one of your alts for advice, read the forums. Basically just stop complaining that the quests are too hard, since they are not.

Ask that players that join your group not give everything away. When our guild started running the reaver pre-raid we would not tell anyone anything about the quest unless they didn't want any surprises, it's more fun that way. Same as the raid itself, we prefered to figure it out all 30-40 attempts, rather than read up on it, or get the solution from other people.

The problem is that's not fun. Sure I can listen and take orders well. Sure I can run through a dungeon and get max xp and loot per 10 to 15 minute speed quests. It's not my idea of fun. I'm guessing most casual groups feel the same way. You think the casual gamer is getting killed on normal missions cause they're zerging? We hate zergers. We want to get ready by gathering together in the inn and binding. We want to go through this new dungeon on normal (whatever the level of the dungeon) and we want to take it slow and complete the optionals if we can. We coordinate our spells and buff each other and send the rogue/ranger in to scout. We don't want to go through it 7 times quickly during our weekly gaming window.

Thats awesome, and alot of guilds like to run that was as well. What I've saying though is if you still feel those quests are over your head or too hard- get help as with the right tactics they are not.

What I wonder is why you don't think they can just leave normal alone and just beef up hard and elite.

I'm sorry I must have missed the update when they made everything harder on normal.

The casual player doesn't have capped characters that run the new missions 15 times each the first week a new module is out. The casual player doesn't then go strictly loot run to max out a capped character waiting for the next challenge. The casual player was having fun and being challenged and is now being dominated. Not Fun!

Dominated by what? Again if the quest is too hard, you're probably not using the right tactics, or you're short maning your group for the challenge, and really if the quests are build for a 6-man group and you take only 4, that your skill and co-ordination will need to make up that difference, or you'll need to make some more friends.

I don't even see the causal player complaining that some characters are clearly better equiped or more experienced.

Really read pages 1-8 of this post a little more closely.

Remember when the desert came out and they had a higher death penalty. Everyone was screaming on the board that the penalty was too high. The powergamers were getting killed and losing levels trying to find the best way to beat the desert dungeons. I seem to remember a dev quote that and I'm paraphrasing "you can't expect to make it through the dungeons you didn't know without dying and losing xp until you got to know the dungeon." That's what "normal" is to the casual gamer now. We die alot and the only way to get that experience back is to do quests we've already done just to break even and buy back the potions and scrolls used. Heheh. And you can't even buy the scrolls cause the powergamers were using them to get more loot. But that's another dead horse.

If it's that hard maybe a possible solution is they add a new "easy" setting to all the dungeons. A little less favor, a little less xp, and scaled down mobs, but leave you close to the same loot as normal (or even the same, since it's not that great anyway on normal), and same end reward since it doesn't matter on the level of the dungeon right now. Kinda like solo for "casual" groups.

Making "Normal" easier would make the grind to elite level less fun for the rest of the gamers that don't have any issues with the content. When the new content comes out I'd like it to be difficult and have a good chance of party wiping, it's what makes things exciting and fun the first couple of times through. If they make the new content easier, so the first time though it's a cake-walk it would be boring immediately.. either that or if they do want to make normal easier, then they need to remove the requirement to do normal hard before you can do elite.

[studentx]

LMAO! Sure they should. I mean it's incredibly easy to hit 50 search for the Cabal trap on normal with a lvl13, non min-maxed, non-elf/drow rogue, right?

Sorry bro. I had no trouble getting that trap on normal with my drow rogue, but only because I started with a high Int, got great gear, way of the mechanic, and lots of APs invested.

Its not real easy for a min/max level 13 drow (no 13th lvl APs) to hit unless they've got the max gear.

[studentx]

Right.

Which for the record, pulls the Dev's away from what they should be doing (expanding the game with new and insidious content) and keeps them busy trying to make the folk who are whining happy by putting corn starch in their diapers so they quit chafing.

There is a secret code that says they're to be used to discuss how you're upset that another player noticed something you didn't and found a way to accomplish a quest that never in a dream would you have conceived a notion it could be accomplished in that manner.

Ummm, there is an entire industry that specializes in those techniques. Therefore the innovation that you speak of isn't so outside the box that they are 'simply inconceivable' for the masses of low brow dirt farmers that surround you. ....However the attitude of 'I'm a genius for coming up with this' (insert clicky, scroll, potion, haste, striding item combo for the win) is what generally chafes the rest.

It is not doing it for the accomplishment. It is the repetitive farming of the loot then whining the game is too easy for my over farmed toon. There are lots of people on these forums that low man raids all the time most people know who they are on each server and they don't complain that the game is too easy and they don't talk about how 1337 their build is. Most of them are perfectly willing to help new players and even show others how they have low manned raids.

They also know that while it may take longer to get all the stuff they want. They will still get it.

[Arlith]

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the way the loot mechanic was originally intended for mod 5. However, the whining mass of doomcriers has made the dev team crumble to the knees of monty haul.

It does not matter. People will STILL be complaining that they get no raid loot. This time next year, I hear there will be a change where we will be able to get lvl 16 raid loot for completing The Goodblade quests. Of course, it still won't be perfect because there will be some who STILL won't be able to get raid loot.

[Naso24]

I just did a solo reaver raid on Risia - normal difficulty. The items in the warded chest were a major mnemonic potion, and a 2 coin piles.

The other chests were items ranging from 7-10 (mostly 10).

The best end reward I found was somewhat decent, ring of resistance +4 Charisma +2 - RR warforged. At least it was a L13 item.

The quest seemed much harder than I remember - particularly the sonic damage the giant does. I could not get into the relatively safe spot.

This may not be typical loot, just another data point to add.

Side note: Everything seemed to load much quicker than on the populated servers. It could just be the low population, but it does appear to be more than that. Better load times than really late on Ferinia / Ghallanda when populations are naturally low.