So the raid loot whiners got their way...

[Uska]

LMAO! Sure they should. I mean it's incredibly easy to hit 50 search for the Cabal trap on normal with a lvl13, non min-maxed, non-elf/drow rogue, right?

Sorry bro. I had no trouble getting that trap on normal with my drow rogue, but only because I started with a high Int, got great gear, way of the mechanic, and lots of APs invested.

Ugh a 50 on normal no wonder I couldnt find it on my 6/3 ftr/rge

[Uska]

I didnt mind the way they were going to do the raid loot but with these changes making the grumpy ones happy it can only be a good thing some of them may even change their minds about including pugs in their group with the 1 in 4 chance on elite the more the better and since they want to hit the magic number of 20 times they will be running raids as often as they can. with the changes I can see casual gamers having a better chance at getting in a raid now.

[Mhykke]

I am part of that casual group having only performed four raids so the mechanic change was to my benefit, I see that and as such it's highly possible that I am biased because of it.

However changes will, and must, occur. End game, mid-levels, or even low levels must be fun for all involved otherwise people will leave.

I would like to know why you wouldn't be going on as many raids. Do you primarily do low-manpowered raids? Is a piece of highest possible cash-loot 10 out of 12 times not incentive in addition to the announced increase in end reward loot?

Just curious because I've seen a lot of people say that and havn't seen many well thought out answers other than "cause!" and you responded in a well thought out and positive way to my previous statements.

Thanks for your time.

Well, this is where we differ. I don't believe the old change in the mechanic was to anyone's benefit, casual player or power raider alike. Less loot drops, on average, is bad for everyone. Whether one raids once a month, or once an hour, less loot overall is a bad thing. Over an 11% chance of no named loot dropping for a full 12 person raid is a bad thing, for all.

Yes, everyone had a 1 in 6 chance of getting any raid loot. But this is the important, and often missed thing. People aren't just after "any" raid loot. You want certain items for certain characters, right? Just b/c I have a 1 out of 6 chance of getting "any" item to drop for me doesn't change the fact that more often than not, it will be an item that the character I'm on isn't really after.

Not to mention the fact that the proposed system introduced trading into the equation, rather than rolling for loot. What are the chances a casual raider had of trading for something that dropped for someone else, over a person with a larger trade list? Sadly, the casual raider, if he hoped to get certain raid loot, would have to hope that it dropped for him, b/c otherwise, he wasn't going to get it.

So, to sum up, less raid loot overall, and the randomness of that loot, coupled w/ introducing trading into the equation (without a means to ensure fair trades by the way), is bad for all (and in my opinion, worse for the casual raiders).


As to your other questions, the reason I wouldn't have gone on as many raids is b/c the way I look at the game. I look at my character as a puzzle. I enjoy building characters, and then finding the equipment to fit that puzzle. The fewer overall named drops was a big disincentive. The grind of having to run many, many more raids b/c of the few drops, was a disincentive.

I wouldn't say I primarily do low manned raids. I guess it depends on what you consider low manned. I'll help people run very short manned raids. But in my guild, raids are open to anyone that wants to join. We post them on the guild site, and announce them in chat before starting. Anyone is welcome. But the truth is, we hardly get a full 12 group together. Not b/c of any "planning", but just do to the fact that people's schedules conflict. So sometimes we have a very short manned raid due to planning, but more often than not, we raid w/ less than 12 b/c that's just who we have online at the time the raid begins. I can't remember the last time I was in a raid of 12 people. I love full 12 person raids, they're fun, it's just hard to put together sometimes.

The increase in other loot in the raids didn't make a difference b/c, if I were out for non named items, there are better places than raids to get those items....faster, easier, etc.


Sorry for the long winded response......

[Taur]

It's funny you say let the flamewar begin, but it's you who starts out calling people that disagree with you names like "whining mass of doomcriers."

Just b/c you don't believe that there was anything wrong w/ the proposed loot system doesn't mean there wasn't. In fact, more people thought there was something wrong than not. There was plenty wrong w/ the system proposed, and thankfully the devs found a compromise that works for most.

the running poll that was posted on this forum in regards to this topic was all of a running 50/50 split.

monty haul strikes again. it's too bad a game based on such a solid system is dying. can't wait for age of conan

[bandyman1]

As many people have stated 28 point characters are perfectly capable of running any and all content in the game.
Buffs, returning projectile weapons, cheap and easily accessible heal and rogue kits, and running really fast in public areas while an extra goody is not required to complete any quest.
Favor objectives are optional and should not be figured into the equation.



28 point characters are perfectly capable of running any content in the game. Using one trap in the game to justify a statement does not seem balanced to me.

Could you provide other instances where a 28 point buy character could not provide a viable service towards completion of a quest?

Thank you for your time.

Umm...this is the statement that the Dev was referring to that prompted my original comment;

Originally posted by Clawstorm
No offense but DDO is designed for min/max toons. How viable are the average rounded out toons who don't have a max stat and are unable to pull their lever or rune, etc disarm blah blah...etc.

This is the Devs comment;

Originally posted by Eladin
On Normal difficulty? They should be fine.

And this was my response;

Originally posted by bandyman1
LMAO! Sure they should. I mean it's incredibly easy to hit 50 search for the Cabal trap on normal with a lvl13, non min-maxed, non-elf/drow rogue, right?

Sorry bro. I had no trouble getting that trap on normal with my drow rogue, but only because I started with a high Int, got great gear, way of the mechanic, and lots of APs invested.

So....can you show me where I said anything even remotely related to a 28 point build not being viable? What was being discussed there was someone who put good scores in more than two abilities instead of near maxing one or two, and branched out into several enhancement lines without maxing any, ( you know-well rounded ), not weather they were a 28 or 32 point build. Try getting a 50 search on a lvl 13 non-elf rogue with a 14-16 INT, while being useful for anything other than trapsmithing.

[Tavok]

Final poll results:
For: 140
Against: 153

Total Votes: 293

Percentages As of 293 Total Votes
For: 47.78%
Against: 52.22%



Please show how what I said (more people thought negatively) is wrong.

Again, what you stated was YOUR opinion, and that opinion was in the minority. So can't you stop, just for one second, and think, hey, maybe all those people have a point? No, it doesn't appear you can, you much rather call them all names and believe in the superiority of your own opinion.

Good points.

Or at least respect our point of view?

[Tavok]

the running poll that was posted on this forum in regards to this topic was all of a running 50/50 split.

monty haul strikes again. it's too bad a game based on such a solid system is dying. can't wait for age of conan

It was 50/50 for the sake of comparison. The real split was something like 52% Against. Yes, a small difference, but none the less, it is leaning towards Against.

Monty Haul isn't really a choice, its a way of life. Turbine chose to introduce this type of game play when they started. They couldn't just turn it off now and NOT have a huge refute by the player base.

[Mhykke]

the running poll that was posted on this forum in regards to this topic was all of a running 50/50 split.

monty haul strikes again. it's too bad a game based on such a solid system is dying. can't wait for age of conan

Final poll results:
For: 140
Against: 153

Total Votes: 293

Percentages As of 293 Total Votes
For: 47.78%
Against: 52.22%



Please show how what I said (more people thought negatively) is wrong.

Again, what you stated was YOUR opinion, and that opinion was in the minority. So can't you stop, just for one second, and think, hey, maybe all those people have a point? No, it doesn't appear you can, you much rather call them all names and believe in the superiority of your own opinion.

[GeneralDiomedes]

the running poll that was posted on this forum in regards to this topic was all of a running 50/50 split.

monty haul strikes again. it's too bad a game based on such a solid system is dying. can't wait for age of conan

Show me an online game that allows you to farm quests that isn't 'monty haul'. They are ALL giving you the full monty.

[LordFancyPants]

So....can you show me where I said anything even remotely related to a 28 point build not being viable? What was being discussed there was someone who put good scores in more than two abilities instead of near maxing one or two, and branched out into several enhancement lines without maxing any, ( you know-well rounded ), not weather they were a 28 or 32 point build. Try getting a 50 search on a lvl 13 non-elf rogue with a 14-16 INT, while being useful for anything other than trapsmithing.

No, I can't.

But I can say that ONE trap existing in ONE quest that is too difficult for a non-maxed speced rogue to spot, does not make this game "geared for min/max toons".

[dragonofsteel2]

the running poll that was posted on this forum in regards to this topic was all of a running 50/50 split.

monty haul strikes again. it's too bad a game based on such a solid system is dying. can't wait for age of conan

That is a forum poll which could have er. Although if I was doing business and 50% of the customers did not like a new change, guess what going to change it. That is a big part of my customer base. Funny part, it not like we got what we wanted it just a change to compromise with use. I can accept a game that willing to work with all play style not outcasting one over the other. Though this thread was started with ill intent toward those that disagree with someone else's opinion. Forums or made for feedback and if people disagree I am sure there or lots of better ways to show it.

whining mass of doomcriers

[bandyman1]

No, I can't.

But I can say that ONE trap existing in ONE quest that is too difficult for a non-maxed speced rogue to spot, does not make this game "geared for min/max toons".

Yeah, because they have such a good record on that. Anyone but me remember the days before drow and 32 point builds when VoN5 required two 25+ Str melees, and two 25+ Int casters at lvl10? Yeah, the Devs never gear for min/max, roflmfao.

[Elthbert]

So how exactly is the new mechanic being changed. I understand how it was suppose d to work, what is the change to it?

[Jundak]

Yeah, because they have such a good record on that. Anyone but me remember the days before drow and 32 point builds when VoN5 required two 25+ Str melees, and two 25+ Int casters at lvl10? Yeah, the Devs never gear for min/max, roflmfao.

As a matter of fact, yes, I do remember. My main is a 28-point, non-min/max build. And he usually outshines 32-point min/maxers in almost every given situation on elite.

Yes...it can be done. Your statement is more laughable than the Dev's by far. The only reason I find the Dev's response a bit funny is because he said Normal and not Elite. Go up your game, if you think min/maxing is the only way to go.

Geared towards min/maxers...!? Give me a break.

[bandyman1]

As a matter of fact, yes, I do remember. My main is a 28-point, non-min/max build. And he usually outshines 32-point min/maxers in almost every given situation on elite.

Yes...it can be done. Your statement is more laughable than the Dev's by far. The only reason I find the Dev's response a bit funny is because he said Normal and not Elite. Go up your game, if you think min/maxing is the only way to go.

Geared towards min/maxers...!? Give me a break.

If someone can point out a SINGLE post of mine in this thread where I say 28 pointers are not viable, then PLZ do! Otherwise learn to read. You can start by reading this whole thread, which is something apparantley several of you couldn't manage.

[Jundak]

If someone can point out a SINGLE post of mine in this thread where I say 28 pointers are not viable, then PLZ do! Otherwise learn to read. You can start by reading this whole thread, which is something apparantley several of you couldn't manage.

*sighs*

Your focusing on the 28-point part of that statement. Ignore that for a second and look at the rest of it. It clearly says "non-min/max build".

The point I am arguing is that this is not a min/max geared game. That's it. That's all. Nothing more.

*waves hand in a Jedi-like fashion*

Ignore the 28-point portion of my response...

[mgoldb2]

Yeah, because they have such a good record on that. Anyone but me remember the days before drow and 32 point builds when VoN5 required two 25+ Str melees, and two 25+ Int casters at lvl10? Yeah, the Devs never gear for min/max, roflmfao.

you need to be min/max to hit 25 at level 10?

16base str+4 item+3enhancments+2 rage potions = 25 for a fighter. If you where a barb just switch enhancements with natural rage. How many fighter types you know that doesn’t have a 16base? You could start at a 14 base and still hit 16 by level 10.

Int rune was clearly focus toward wizards but you don’t need to be a min/max wizard.

18base+4item+3enhancment=25 only need to start with a 16 base to hit 18 base by level 10.

(You may replace +4 items with a potions if you was not able to get one back then)

Was no need to min/max to hit those runes. I know because I played chars I base off of pnp back then and I still could hit those runes.

If anythign the problem with those runes was forcing you to take certain classes but there was no need for min/max chars.

[Seneca_Windforge]

My beginning stats way back in March 2006 (elven Wiz13/Clr1):
Str: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 16(!)
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

+3 to Int at levels 4/8/12
+3 from Wizard's Int 3
+5 from an item
+2 from a tome

Total Intelligence: 29 (behind 4 points from a maxed-out Drow with the same items/tomes)

I do just fine, on any difficulty. Would I do some things differently, if I were making this character now? Sure. But anyone who tries to tell you that you *must* max out your primary stat or be horribly gimped is just wrong.

DDO's character creation system allows for an incredible amount of customization, much more so than a game like WoW. The price we pay for that is that it is much easier to ruin a character. However...being down a few points from maximum != ruined.

As for the raid loot system, I have mixed feelings. The idea of running a raid with only six people for a better chance at loot is appealing to me. Also, I think that in some ways, it's *better* to run with fewer people. Fewer people means less strain on the healers and less chance that someone is going to make that one critical mistake that will ruin the entire raid for everyone. Really, the new system doesn't really encourage raid groups to invite PUGs along. Your chances are 1 in 6, no matter how many other people you bring, unless you trust everyone to abide by a roll system. I would still rather go with a 6-person group I knew and trusted over a full 12-person group that I knew nothing about.

The one thing that would make me want to go with a random PUG? The removal of "critical mistakes" that a stupid (or just inexperienced) player can make to partially or totally ruin the raid.

[Uska]

As a matter of fact, yes, I do remember. My main is a 28-point, non-min/max build. And he usually outshines 32-point min/maxers in almost every given situation on elite.

Yes...it can be done. Your statement is more laughable than the Dev's by far. The only reason I find the Dev's response a bit funny is because he said Normal and not Elite. Go up your game, if you think min/maxing is the only way to go.

Geared towards min/maxers...!? Give me a break.

I agree still play my 28pt cleric that I built like I would have for pnp with a 13 dex(for dodge) and a decent str and con love playing still and in no way is he a min max

[bandyman1]

Here's the last any of you will get from me on this subject.

My lvl 13 pally is non min/maxed. My lvl 14 fighter is non min/maxed. My lvl 14 rogue is non min/maxed. My ect.,ect....

The ONLY toon I have that started at the highest base in any stat is my caster. Drow. Started with a 20 Int. Have a 34 now.

When a new player comes along, they often build a toon as they would in PnP. Lots of them have had some experience there. They tend to spead out their build points into several different abilities. Does this make them horribly gimped? No. But it does make it diffucult to accomplish their roles in a party at times?

When that new rogue player gets in his/her first group, and is so excited, and then can't find a single trap box with a search score that would be perfectly viable in PnP, how do you think that player feels? Did NOONE but me feel the obvious frustration of the poster the Dev was responding too? Did you seriously all miss that? At that's what he needed I guess, a flipent comment about how "he should be fine" on normal.

I'm done with this, lol.