User Psychology Vs. Reality...

[HumanJHawkins]

This is funny... I have been keeping track (loosely) of what people say vs. what actually happens. This is based on many quests of many different configurations with mostly pretty skilled users. Here is my main finding:

- Quests are A LOT more difficult than people like to admit.

I have had several different people tell me about how X-raid, or Y-Gianthold run is easy... But in actually running those quests several times, I find the success rate it not what it was predicted to be.

Some examples:
- The Dragon Raid... Supposed to be trivial for experienced players. But out of 4 times doing it, two failed (neither my fault thankfully!) One failed due to a simple mistake that brought agro the wrong direction. Another failed because the Cleric who was supposed to res everyone if the dragon wiped us, actually got himself killed too by standing just slightly in the wrong spot. I.e. 50% failure rate among experienced players.

NOTE: Since these happened, I have heard players who were on those raids with me say that the dragon raid is totally easy... Well, it might seem easy when everyone does their job right and the party succeeds. But in reality it is difficult to get everyone to do their job right. Therefore it is NOT easy.

- The Reaver Raid... A lot of people say this is easy. Some point to the guy who solo'd it as proof. But I have ran it 8 times on three different nights. Each of the three nights had different sets of experienced players. Out of those 8 times, only 2 succeeded... I think we succeded on the second try on night 1 (elite), the fourth try on night 2 (normal), and I had to leave before we succeeded on the third time.

Also, at least half of the messages that pop up on the screen are failure messages, so it is not just the people I run with. Everyone is having a high failure rate on this quest.

Yet still, I have heard different people who were in those with me groups talk about how the Reaver raid is the easiest raid in the game.

WHAT THIS MEANS:
What this means for DDO development, is that the developers should take people's complaints about quests being too easy with a grain of salt. People are inherantly optimistic. And they are also prone to exclude certain types of failures from their analysis... I.e. "The quest is easy but I just made a wrong step there." when actually the person made that wrong step because the quest is not easy. And finally, people don't like to admit their failures and threfore play them down (especially when the prevailing mentality is that the quests are easy... Who would admit that they find a quest difficult when everyone is saying how easy they are?

Thoughts?

[Dariun]

Thoughts?

I think every quest except the one where you have to break all the boxes are too hard .

I had to run for my life from a witchdoctor in Garrison's Missing Pack, I totally got killed on Bringing the Light recently (trip, trip, trip, trip, trip, trip, trip, trip, trip, trip, trip, DEATH!), that Hobgoblin in Sewer Rescue squished my new bard, don't even talk to me about the various and sundry ogres in the harbor, and Shriketalon is a nasty beast!

[JelloMold]

I think the disparity is based on who you are running with. Most of these "everything is too easy" guys are tricked out to the hilt, only hang out with other people with "uber" stuff, and run these same couple of quests over and over (while neglecting the rest of the game) and complain about how everyone that isn't them is gimped. They also whine about lack of content forgetting that the majority of the players don't spend 30+ hours a week in fantasyland. This VERY vocal minority is full of braggarts and one-uppers who really think that this game has a competetion to it. These guys will never run with you or me precisely for the reasons you mentioned...we don't know exactly where to stand, who to kill first etc. The real pain of grouping with these guys (when they are slumming apparently) is that they don't take the time to help new people learn what to do, they instead just whine constantly about how so and so is a noob and that they are carrying everyone.

There is far more fun to be had, trying and failing than being lectured by some 25 year old troglodyte who still lives with his mother and who's significant other is inflatable.

No thanks. I avoid raids like the plague.

[Aspenor]

I rarely see these "everything is too easy" posts. I do often see people posting about a certain quest or encounter being easy.

I agree with the OP that most people ignore the failures and focus on successes.

I think ALL quests are a challenge, assuming at least 2 inexperienced players per party. If a whole party is experienced, then of course the quest will be easy.

[HumanJHawkins]

I think the disparity is based on who you are running with. Most of these "everything is too easy" guys are tricked out to the hilt

Not to negate anything that you say, but my point was that even when running with experienced players who have uber-gear, the failure rate on some quests and raids is like 30%+. But when people are asked how difficult the same 30% failure quests are, they say they are totally easy.

I think another reason for this is that the penalty for death is so low... Death has so little negative effect that people don't even remember that they died a few times in solving something. So they consider it a success. (And in fairness, the devs have designed a lot of quests to require people to die in some cases).

It would change the game severely, and unless drastic changes were made across the board, it would be a lot less fun for most players. But it would be interesting if getting ressurrected took like 12 real-time hours. So basically, if you die, you better have a back-up toon if you want to keep playing that same day. If drastic game balance changes were made, this would actually be more fun. People would take death way more seriously, it would be a step closer to PnP, and people would play a lot more alts.

But that is an unrealistic digression... Back to reality now...

[MDS_Geist]

I think another reason for this is that the penalty for death is so low... Death has so little negative effect that people don't even remember that they died a few times in solving something. So they consider it a success. (And in fairness, the devs have designed a lot of quests to require people to die in some cases).

I don't agree with you that the penalty for death is so low. A loss of over a thousand points of experience is a considerable loss (yes I know it isn't truly a "loss" but a "debt" - the net effect is the same in that it has to be recovered). If you're running invaders elite with a level 13 character and rolling a number of one's on saves then the experience from the adventure may not even cover your experience debt.

[HumanJHawkins]

No thanks. I avoid raids like the plague.

I finally figured something out about raids... If you expect to succeed and get some uber loot, you will be sorely disappointed. Success is far from guaranteed, and uber-loot is often useless to you even if you can get the high roll.

But, if you just want to see if you can win... Like seeing if you can get to level 30 in missile command... They can be a lot of fun. I mean, who ever said missile command wasn't fun just because you died on level 28 instead of 30.

Raids are a lot of fun even if you lose if you have the right frame of mind.

[JelloMold]

I finally figured something out about raids... If you expect to succeed and get some uber loot, you will be sorely disappointed. Success is far from guaranteed, and uber-loot is often useless to you even if you can get the high roll.

But, if you just want to see if you can win... Like seeing if you can get to level 30 in missile command... They can be a lot of fun. I mean, who ever said missile command wasn't fun just because you died on level 28 instead of 30.

Raids are a lot of fun even if you lose if you have the right frame of mind.

You are absolutely right. That is why I have not totally given up on the raids. Usually, if nothing else, it is a chance to run with a few more people that I'm not familiar with (even within my own guild). I'm just after fun, to be honest I really couldn't care less about the loot. I don't even know what the good items are, because it isn't a priority for me.

BTW, sorry, I kind of got off topic on my little rant there.

[JayDubya]

Heh, I remember when Vault of Night first came out, and people telling me how ridiculously hard they were.

Then, I remember the months of wailing and gnashing of teeth with the Titan, until entire guilds gave up trying to beat it, convinced that it wasn't possible. To the point that Turbine decided to make it easier. And on the last possible day, Bones Combat Brigade of Lhazaar beat the Titan, the only guild to ever beat it with the "original" difficulty.

And I remember people *****ing about the Shadow Tomb raids, same thing - too difficult - in fact people refuse to run them because they're so difficult. "They're just not very much fun." - Which is what happens when you make something difficult.

And now, of course, Proof in the Poison (or whatever it's called) - widely considered to be too hard, people kept *****ing about that as well, and now... they're making it easier.


The ironic thing is that every single one of these players has the power to make the game harder - by constraining themselves in some way. Permadeath, or Bare Bones, or no-AI-exploit runs, even as simple as deliberately not using the "best pratice" way to take down a particular dungeon.

But they don't, generally. They seem to want the devs to make the game hard for people with top-of-the-line gear, without seeming to recognize that this will make it nigh-impossible for people w/out top-of-the-line gear.

[Vizer]

The ironic thing is that every single one of these players has the power to make the game harder - by constraining themselves in some way. Permadeath, or Bare Bones, or no-AI-exploit runs, even as simple as deliberately not using the "best pratice" way to take down a particular dungeon.

.

I don’t use "best practices" simply because I don’t know them and if I fell I’m cheating excessively I wont put them in practice unless the entire party agrees it is absolutely necessary. And the funny thing is you wont know until you try so I don’t have to use them because more often than not we finish the quest with out exploiting AI. Its all about trust you have to trust your party members do their job and you can do it


I ran the VON raid not to long ago and I was 1 of 2 CLR and we ran It with mostly 1st timers only 1 of the tanks had done it before and he gave us very little tour guiding ( a good thing for me and my guilds) and at the at the last part he told me were to stand and I took it under advisement as a fall back position in case the **** hit the fan and I stood along those rocks right in front of here and would just step out in front of hem as I cast my cure spells so peoples lack of using these "best practices" are not what the problem.

[Tavok]

Heh, I remember when Vault of Night first came out, and people telling me how ridiculously hard they were.

Then, I remember the months of wailing and gnashing of teeth with the Titan, until entire guilds gave up trying to beat it, convinced that it wasn't possible. To the point that Turbine decided to make it easier. And on the last possible day, Bones Combat Brigade of Lhazaar beat the Titan, the only guild to ever beat it with the "original" difficulty.

And I remember people *****ing about the Shadow Tomb raids, same thing - too difficult - in fact people refuse to run them because they're so difficult. "They're just not very much fun." - Which is what happens when you make something difficult.

And now, of course, Proof in the Poison (or whatever it's called) - widely considered to be too hard, people kept *****ing about that as well, and now... they're making it easier.


The ironic thing is that every single one of these players has the power to make the game harder - by constraining themselves in some way. Permadeath, or Bare Bones, or no-AI-exploit runs, even as simple as deliberately not using the "best pratice" way to take down a particular dungeon.

But they don't, generally. They seem to want the devs to make the game hard for people with top-of-the-line gear, without seeming to recognize that this will make it nigh-impossible for people w/out top-of-the-line gear.

I think the problem with Proof is in the Poison is not that its really really hard, its just that it truely is inappropiately leveled for its difficultly. Its much harder than a level 4 quest.

[Knightrose]

No, I don't believe that any of the quests in DDO are above average difficulty. They are more of in the range of trial and error that still rewards. So as not to be extremely annoying.

Those quests that test you every time you run them are the raids. And even that difficulty is barely sustained because repition always berths success in ddo.

Contra on the NES is 'difficult', it forces you to remember precise movement per foot per level.

DDO is not 'difficult.' It has very relaxed boundaries for failure. Sometimes even failing can still produce success.

[Kawiki]

Heh, I remember when Vault of Night first came out, and people telling me how ridiculously hard they were.

Then, I remember the months of wailing and gnashing of teeth with the Titan, until entire guilds gave up trying to beat it, convinced that it wasn't possible. To the point that Turbine decided to make it easier. And on the last possible day, Bones Combat Brigade of Lhazaar beat the Titan, the only guild to ever beat it with the "original" difficulty.

And I remember people *****ing about the Shadow Tomb raids, same thing - too difficult - in fact people refuse to run them because they're so difficult. "They're just not very much fun." - Which is what happens when you make something difficult.

And now, of course, Proof in the Poison (or whatever it's called) - widely considered to be too hard, people kept *****ing about that as well, and now... they're making it easier.


The ironic thing is that every single one of these players has the power to make the game harder - by constraining themselves in some way. Permadeath, or Bare Bones, or no-AI-exploit runs, even as simple as deliberately not using the "best pratice" way to take down a particular dungeon.

But they don't, generally. They seem to want the devs to make the game hard for people with top-of-the-line gear, without seeming to recognize that this will make it nigh-impossible for people w/out top-of-the-line gear.

To put this into perspective a little. The dragon WAS impossible to beat for the first few months unless you bugged her. If you were to use the common tactic that is used today you would be hit by 2 190-210 HP breath attacks AND a wing buffet that would blow several members off the island. Raid difficulty for this raid is moderate as some things can go wrong. For level 14s though it is generally a piece of cake as they can handle anything that goes wrong.

The Titan was proved to be not impossible, however the guild that beat it before the changes used the grease technique which was soon removed. It became very easy when comet fall was implemented, now its moderatly hard. Mostly its just a pain in the ass.

DQ, beat in the first week. I have had to restart this one only twice since the first couple of weeks, the reason: The Ranger forgot arrows. Raid Difficulty Very Easy.

Stormreaver - Once you have have the start down this one becomes pretty easy, however the difficulty is moderate as several things can go wrong if you don't pay attention to what you are doing, especially the cleric and caster.

All in all the raids are very difficult at first (mostly) but once you have the strat down they are very easy as long as EVERYONE knows their role. One person can screw it up though.

[Arnya]

One person can screw it up though.

Just, for once, let it be someone else next time

[DelScorcho]

And I remember people *****ing about the Shadow Tomb raids, same thing - too difficult - in fact people refuse to run them because they're so difficult. "They're just not very much fun." - Which is what happens when you make something difficult.

The Shadow Tomb missions are not difficult. They have unfun aspects that make people not want to run them. Swim for 5 minutes, jump out and kill three undead, and resume swimming just isn't that appealing unless you need the favor, especially since the chests are terrible.

[Morgoth_the_Enemy]

- The Dragon Raid... Supposed to be trivial for experienced players. But out of 4 times doing it, two failed (neither my fault thankfully!) One failed due to a simple mistake that brought agro the wrong direction. Another failed because the Cleric who was supposed to res everyone if the dragon wiped us, actually got himself killed too by standing just slightly in the wrong spot. I.e. 50% failure rate among experienced players.

- The Reaver Raid... A lot of people say this is easy. Some point to the guy who solo'd it as proof. But I have ran it 8 times on three different nights. Each of the three nights had different sets of experienced players. Out of those 8 times, only 2 succeeded... I think we succeded on the second try on night 1 (elite), the fourth try on night 2 (normal), and I had to leave before we succeeded on the third time.

So you raided with roughly seven groups, all in what are probably pugs, didn't even bother touching on the Demon Queen or the Titan, and you expect to come up with a competent judgement on their overall difficulty based on that?

[Arnya]

So you raided with roughly seven groups, all in what are probably pugs, didn't even bother touching on the Demon Queen or the Titan, and you expect to come up with a competent judgement on their overall difficulty based on that?

I believe most runs were mainly guildies and associates, I was there for a few of them. We had the right party make up and all experienced and twinked 32 point toons with raid gear.

Last night's reaver run was an example - first two runs we tried a new tactic that a guildie learnt on a PUG. Went fine until a tank died then it was all over... Just one of those things.

Like when I took my sorc to the titan, last pillar with one wasted, I get ganked by warforged and let rip... with suggestion... no idea what the raid leader meant by THE F**KING PILLAR'S PREPPED ALREADY!!!

Until the pillar drops that is.

Even the most seasoned players (like me lol) make mistakes and yes, it can cost the whole raid. If I was in a PUG and did that, the group would be a little less forgiving methinks...

And I bought a new dispel magic wand...

EDIT: Oh, and we (HJH is in BM) run each raid once a week on a given day, maybe more than just once...

[HumanJHawkins]

<CUT>Last night's reaver run was an example - first two runs we tried a new tactic that a guildie learnt on a PUG. Went fine until a tank died then it was all over...

Hey man, did you guys pull it off after I left? That was a blast trying the new tactic.

[Arnya]

Um, nope. We tried the old way but anti-grav bugged and stayed on.

Next time, Spyd got fly and got incapped halfway down the passage, I got fly and healed him but got killed, he hit the switch and lost fly...

So we were all stuck in the dead room except Spyd... finally get the res but only had about 120 secs on the clock. With highest debt being -93k (Bonus, of course) the leader called it and we went did deleras for fav (WOOT! got Crankey a carniflex. Have to run again norm for Herrod today)

So, yeah we failed, believe it or not.

Uber leetzor my ar$e

EDIT: By then we were down to 7 members, 3 of which were clerics....

[HumanJHawkins]

So you raided with roughly seven groups, all in what are probably pugs, didn't even bother touching on the Demon Queen or the Titan, and you expect to come up with a competent judgement on their overall difficulty based on that?

In the order of your above assumtions: Yes (and many more too), no, no, no.

Did you want a twelve page post covering every detail of everything I have run? I didn't think so, so I picked 2 good examples.

I could also have gone into all the times I have had a caster tell me how easy some part of gianthold is, only to see him pwned three seconds after entering... Or how someone DD'd out of one of the locked puzzle rooms in Titan before a necessary setting was made, etc. etc. Yes, I have also done DQ.

And before you make another assumption... I am NOT asking for anything to be made easier... Just asking the developers to avoid buying into the "It's too easy" hype.