Alignment Change Proposal

[Alazure]

Many of us, made earlier characters without knowing the ramifications of aligment in this game. We picked aligment based on role playing and because our PnP characters had such a such alignment. ie; Who knew weapons would be so alignment specific? Who knew a Rez ring couldn't be used by non-good "even" if you have great UMD? As the game changes; we should be allowed to adapt to it, within the confines of D&D rules. Alignment changes and shift are definitely within the rules and are there for a reason. Those that are against any form of alignment change or shift, can ask themselves, why they can acccept D&D rules for some things and abitrarily decide they don't want others.

How can we adjust this and get our beloved older characters in line with re-rolls and new ones? I propose two possible ways:

1) Turbine can use the paid services ($9.95) for an alignment change. In this case, since we're paying, there should be no limit as to the change. (not my first choice, but mentioned here, as an option, since Turbine has taken this route for some things already)

2) Alignment could be changed by use of a dragon shard, plat. , and an appropriate quest. The shift could only be one over. (lawful neutral to either lawgood or true neutral, but not chaotic good; drastic changes would require multiple tries with appropriate waits times, plat, and quest) This, is by far, my preference, as it would stick closer to rolepalying and similar to what paladins need to do to regain theirs.

[Qzipoun]

1) Turbine can use the paid services ($9.95) for an alignment change. In this case, since we're paying, there should be no limit as to the change.

Why!? It is normal for a character in DnD to change alignments, why pay for something that should be part of the game?

Just have it like the feat/enhancement/spell respec.

[Shaamis]

it makes no sense to me yet, why we can't change our surname along with our firstnames, and why we can't change our alignment in ANY way, shape or form.

I dont think it should be a premium service, it should be a in-game shard switch, like feats. I too, made my alignment with PnP game knowledge, not knowing I would regret being TN.

[The_Old_Sage]

Many of us, made earlier characters without knowing the ramifications of aligment in this game. We picked aligment based on role playing and because our PnP characters had such a such alignment. Who knew weapons would be so alignment specific? Who knew a Rez ring couldn't be used by non-good "even" if you have great UMD?

Seriously, perhaps I am taking my D&D experience for granted, but how could folks not know that alignment would affect the use of particular magic items? As early as the first weapon of pure good or armor of stability, this was obvious.

Not being able to use the rez ring is hardly a game-breaker, in my opinion. I think that, instead, the request should be for more variety in these types of items (for example, more unholy burst weapons, etc.).

Reasoning that "because I can't use or do that based on my race/class/alignment" as the basis of changing something in the game is one of the huge problems in this community. If you want to use a rez ring, make a good-aligned character. If you want human versatility, build a human, if you want to use stability armor, build a true neutral character.

I would love to have the character build that can use everything and do everything, but that's not what D&D is all about.

The funniest thing is that DDO is one of the few MMO's that allows you to multi-class, giving players more versatility that the standard archetype-based games like EQ and WoW. Yet I guess that's not good enough.

[Vinos]

Seriously, perhaps I am taking my D&D experience for granted, but how could folks not know that alignment would affect the use of particular magic items? As early as the first weapon of pure good or armor of stability, this was obvious.

Not being able to use the rez ring is hardly a game-breaker, in my opinion. I think that, instead, the request should be for more variety in these types of items (for example, more unholy burst weapons, etc.).

Reasoning that "because I can't use or do that based on my race/class/alignment" as the basis of changing something in the game is one of the huge problems in this community. If you want to use a rez ring, make a good-aligned character. If you want human versatility, build a human, if you want to use stability armor, build a true neutral character.

I would love to have the character build that can use everything and do everything, but that's not what D&D is all about.

The funniest thing is that DDO is one of the few MMO's that allows you to multi-class, giving players more versatility that the standard archetype-based games like EQ and WoW. Yet I guess that's not good enough.

Well said. It seems like alot of people want to have thier cake and eat it too. There is another thread about wanting elven armor mastery like dwarves get. Next I am sure there will be a thread asking for dwarven arcane fluidity or halfling con bonuses. The races have different abilities/skills, that's what makes them different. Same with alignment. Even now for the most part alignment is useless in gameplay. The fact that people get upset becuase they can't use that true choas sword with thier pally makes me laugh.

[Alazure]

I think you're missing the point. No one said anything about Pallys using True Chaos swords or having characters be able to use all items. It's not about having their cakes and eating it too. I'm all for different abilities and skills. It's true that after playing for a while, you realize how important pure good and other specs are. But how about those of us that first start playing and make 2 to 3 first characters to emulate our PnP ones with alignments like Chaotic Useless (Neutral) or Lawful Useless (Neutral) Jeez, you make it sound like we are asking for some kind of entitlement or D&D rule change. If anything, alignment should play a bigger part,(ie Paladins) not smaller. Alignment change is an integral part of D&D.

[Vinos]

Many of us, made earlier characters without knowing the ramifications of aligment in this game. We picked aligment based on role playing and because our PnP characters had such a such alignment. Who knew weapons would be so alignment specific? Who knew a Rez ring couldn't be used by non-good "even" if you have great UMD?

How can we adjust this and get our beloved older characters in line with re-rolls and new ones? I propose two possible ways:

1) Turbine can use the paid services ($9.95) for an alignment change. In this case, since we're paying, there should be no limit as to the change.

2) Alignment could be changed by use of a dragon shard, plat. , and an appropriate quest. The shift could only be one over. (lawful neutral to either lawgood or true neutral, but not chaotic good; drastic changes would require multiple tries with appropriate waits times, plat, and quest) This, is by far, my preference, as it would stick closer to rolepalying and similar to what paladins need to do to regain theirs.

I think you're missing the point. No one said anything about Pallys using True Chaos swords or having characters be able to use all items. It's not about having their cakes and eating it too. I'm all for different abilities and skills. It's true that after playing for a while, you realize how important pure good and other specs are. But how about those of us that first start playing and make 2 to 3 first characters to emulate our PnP ones with alignments like Chaotic Useless (Neutral) or Lawful Useless (Neutral) Jeez, you make it sound like we are asking for some kind of entitlement or D&D rule change. If anything, alignment should play a bigger part,(ie Paladins) not smaller. Alignment change is an integral part of D&D.

Sure about that? Looks like items are a big part of your complaint especially when you consider that aside from a handful of items alignment has NOTHING to do with anything. What are you gonna do if you change your alignment to good to use that rez ring then a uber neutral item comes out? Unless you're a roleplayer alignment is pointless. Now I would like to see some alignment based story lines and the like.

[Tanka]

Seriously, perhaps I am taking my D&D experience for granted, but how could folks not know that alignment would affect the use of particular magic items? As early as the first weapon of pure good or armor of stability, this was obvious.

When I made Honos, there were no Pure Good weapons, nor Anarchic, nor any other alignment-based weapons.

So for those of us with characters from, say, head start or near after that, and suddenly can't use a lot of the top-end gear that is Element of Pure Good because of a choice we made before these types of items came in...

Well, I can't say I need an alignment respec for Honos, but I'd take one if it was offered.

[Vinos]

When I made Honos, there were no Pure Good weapons, nor Anarchic, nor any other alignment-based weapons.

So for those of us with characters from, say, head start or near after that, and suddenly can't use a lot of the top-end gear that is Element of Pure Good because of a choice we made before these types of items came in...

Well, I can't say I need an alignment respec for Honos, but I'd take one if it was offered.

Do they have pure good weapons in DnD? Haven't played it since 2.0 so I am not up on that stuff. If there is that it would stand to reason that they would make thier way into the game eventually and you could have planned accordingly. If those items aren't in DnD then I can see your gripes.

[The_Old_Sage]

I think you're missing the point. No one said anything about Pallys using True Chaos swords or having characters be able to use all items. It's not about having their cakes and eating it too.

Excuse me? It's the premise of your original post!!!

Who knew weapons would be so alignment specific? Who knew a Rez ring couldn't be used by non-good "even" if you have great UMD?

Hard to believe that this is about anything other than using items that your current build cannot use.

Alignment change is an integral part of D&D.

That is an incorrect assertion. Alignment change is an integral part of D&D, but mostly as a result of "INVOLUNTARY" alignment change due to the actions of a player contrary to his/her chosen alignment. The extreme example being, of course, when a paladin commits an evil act and irrevocably loses his/her paladinhood. Voluntary alignment change does not come about as easily. What you are suggesting is a process by which a character, who finally comes across the suit of +5 Mithral Full Plate of Stability ends up deciding to change his/her alignment to make the most of it.

I understand your frustration, but voluntary alignment change is not the way to go. Having a wider range of item options (and eliminating useless combinations, like the +2 longsword of greater ooze bane) for the undeserved alignments is the way to go.

When I made Honos, there were no Pure Good weapons, nor Anarchic, nor any other alignment-based weapons.

That's incorrect. They have been around since release. Are you telling me that you have only played one character since the time of making your first toon in this game? Would you not take the opportunity to make a new character that has the requisite alignment to use the items you want?

[Tanka]

Do they have pure good weapons in DnD? Haven't played it since 2.0 so I am not up on that stuff. If there is that it would stand to reason that they would make thier way into the game eventually and you could have planned accordingly. If those items aren't in DnD then I can see your gripes.

As far as I know, no, there are no Pure Good weapons in PnP. There are specific-alignment-only weapons, but they're rarer.

[The_Old_Sage]

How can we adjust this and get our beloved older characters in line with re-rolls and new ones? I propose two possible ways:

The answer to this is to do exactly what everyone else has done. Re-roll your character or make a new one.

I am actually not against respecification under certain circumstances, however, to be able to swap alignments and other stats with even the threshold of a paid service just doesn't cut it.

[The_Old_Sage]

Do they have pure good weapons in DnD? Haven't played it since 2.0 so I am not up on that stuff. If there is that it would stand to reason that they would make thier way into the game eventually and you could have planned accordingly. If those items aren't in DnD then I can see your gripes.

As far as I know, no, there are no Pure Good weapons in PnP. There are specific-alignment-only weapons, but they're rarer.

This is totally irrelevant. DDO is far from the pencil and paper D&D game. But even subscribing to the line of questioning above I believe this is misleading.

I think the question you should be asking is "Are there alignment-restricted weapons in D&D?" and the answer is OF COURSE THERE ARE!!

[Alazure]

Yes I'm sure. Obviously you choose to interpret my words to be a complaint and to imply Pallys should be able to use a Chaotic weapon as a right. I thought the reason we had these boards was to add constructives ideas for the betterment of the game, not to criticize someone for their ideas. My point, to move closer to PnP rules (within the limits of MMO) is valid and I'm not the first to bring it up. I'm not impling that characters chase the lastest items, but that alignment mean more and by that note alignment moves be possible. As a side benefit, esp for those that roleplay and would not slash/death or reroll a character as much as we would just tear up our PnP characters, it allows us to : (ie. Shift alignment on a Barbarian, with low charisma, from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Good, so as to make him more viable in an good oriented society, and better able to use "good" weapons as a side benefit.) Why do you insist on criticizing a move toward D&D rules. If you look at Turbine record on things like evasion with armor and such, you will see a tendency to move closer when they deem it within the realm of their big picture. Don't pick one example that I used, like weapon alignment as basis to pick apart my idea to make alignment shift as per D&D rules. My examples don't mean my ideas are bad. Maybe others can articulate better examples. BTW; I also would like to see aligment based story lines.

P.S. The paid option was just an idea, since Turbine has used it before. If you note, I said I much prefer the second option.

I'm sorry Old Sage that you have a problem believing it's more that just about using one particular item. I've been playing D&D since 1981 and disagree that there is no voluntary alignment change. I never said it was easy. But your actions and Deity (whole different Topic) dictate your alignment. A series of quest and specified actions can get you in motion for a shift. It can be as difficult as you want to make, just make it possible (IMO). If you want, go back to your player Handbooks and DM Guides from past years (like I did) and see if you change your mind a little.

[Vinos]

This is totally irrelevant. DDO is far from the pencil and paper D&D game. But even subscribing to the line of questioning above I believe this is misleading.

I think the question you should be asking is "Are there alignment-restricted weapons in D&D?" and the answer is OF COURSE THERE ARE!!

I really don't why I list an example when I ask questions. People seem to think that is the ONLY thing I am talking about.

[The_Old_Sage]

Yes I'm sure. Obviously you choose to interpret my words to be a complaint and to imply Pallys should be able to use a Chaotic weapon as a right. I thought the reason we had these boards was to add constructives ideas for the betterment of the game, not to criticize someone for their ideas. My point, to move closer to PnP rules (within the limits of MMO) is valid and I'm not the first to bring it up. I'm not impling that characters chase the lastest items, but that alignment mean more and by that note alignment moves be possible. As a side benefit, esp for those that roleplay and would not slash/death or reroll a character as much as we would just tear up our PnP characters, it allows us to : (ie. Shift alignment on a Barbarian, with low charisma, from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Good, so as to make him more viable in an good oriented society, and better able to use "good" weapons as a side benefit.) Why do you insist on criticizing a move toward D&D rules. If you look at Turbine record on things like evasion with armor and such, you will see a tendency to move closer when they deem it within the realm of their big picture. Don't pick one example that I used, like weapon alignment as basis to pick apart my idea to make alignment shift as per D&D rules. My examples don't mean my ideas are bad. Maybe others can articulate better examples. BTW; I also would like to see aligment based story lines.

Once again, the premise of the OP was based on using alignment-restricted items. It the example used as the basis for proposing alignment changes. So please don't accuse me of picking on one point because IT WAS THE POINT of the original post!

On the point of algnment-based quests. That would great (in theory)! Even if the consequences of choices made in the quest would be possible (involuntary)alignment change. The problem is, they become totally pointless because everyone would know the correct solution about 1 hour after the quest went live (actually before then due to the Risia server).

Involuntary alignment change based on actions in the game (stealing, killing good creatures, etc.) would be acceptable as well, however what this really would be is a faction system similar to Everquest where doing certain things scores points with certain alignment directions while doing other things does the opposite.

[Vinos]

Yes I'm sure. Obviously you choose to interpret my words to be a complaint and to imply Pallys should be able to use a Chaotic weapon as a right. I thought the reason we had these boards was to add constructives ideas for the betterment of the game, not to criticize someone for their ideas. My point, to move closer to PnP rules (within the limits of MMO) is valid and I'm not the first to bring it up. I'm not impling that characters chase the lastest items, but that alignment mean more and by that note alignment moves be possible. As a side benefit, esp for those that roleplay and would not slash/death or reroll a character as much as we would just tear up our PnP characters, it allows us to : (ie. Shift alignment on a Barbarian, with low charisma, from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Good, so as to make him more viable in an good oriented society, and better able to use "good" weapons as a side benefit.) Why do you insist on criticizing a move toward D&D rules. If you look at Turbine record on things like evasion with armor and such, you will see a tendency to move closer when they deem it within the realm of their big picture. Don't pick one example that I used, like weapon alignment as basis to pick apart my idea to make alignment shift as per D&D rules. My examples don't mean my ideas are bad. Maybe others can articulate better examples. BTW; I also would like to see aligment based story lines.

P.S. The paid option was just an idea, since Turbine has used it before. If you note, I said I much prefer the second option.

Again just an example like you used the rez ring as one. There are only 2 reasons to change alignment in DDO. Roleplaying purposes and Use of certain items. When that changes then alignment changes will probably follow.

[The_Old_Sage]

I really don't why I list an example when I ask questions. People seem to think that is the ONLY thing I am talking about.

People seem to think that because it was the only thing you typed, regardless of what other things you think you were talking about. In subsequent posts, you have expanded your original discussion away from the original assertion you made, and I have responded to those posts as well. But you cannot blame people for reacting to the actual words you typed in your original post and not the thoughts that may have inspired those words when you failed to express them in said post.

[Vinos]

People seem to think that because it was the only thing you typed, regardless of what other things you think you were talking about. In subsequent posts, you have expanded your original discussion away from the original assertion you made, and I have responded to those posts as well. But you cannot blame people for reacting to the actual words you typed in your original post and not the thoughts that may have inspired those words when you failed to express them in said post.

I'll just remember to type "for example" after everything I guess. People take thing VERY literally here.

[The_Old_Sage]

Again just an example like you used the rez ring as one. There are only 2 reasons to change alignment in DDO. Roleplaying purposes and Use of certain items. When that changes then alignment changes will probably follow.

There is no role-playing in DDO in the classical sense of the word. In pencil and paper, role-playing is an ACTUAL PART of the game, with rewards and punishments that occur based on the choices of actions players make. These are not only based on alignment, but on other things as well (for example, doing some jail time when you fail that skill roll picking a pocket). In DDO, role-playing is really just a conversation style that some players may choose to adopt. There are no consequences for actions other than death if the mobs/traps hit you for more hit points than you have. That is the (unfortunate) game mechanic that is (also unfortunately) also a part of many MMO's.

Some games, like Everquest (I know that one best), established a faction system whereby different groups would be hostile or not hostile based on whether you killed a lot of mobs or completed quests affecting that particular line of faction. However, it wasn't alignment-based. As a paladin I could commit the most atrocious acts but still maintain my class abilities.

If you have played Neverwinter Nights (1 or 2) there is an alignment system which can change your alignment based on your actions. However, I would imagine this would be very difficult to do in an MMO, especially if the actions of party members could impact on your alignment.

I can just imagine the thread on these forums should someone lose their paladin status because they killed something they should not have or broke into a room they should have stayed out of.