Human Versatility: Casters? Take a Hike!

[Emili]

Now this I find really funny. Saying that the change of an enhancement broke your characters, screams to me that YOU broke them and then made up for that with HV. Arguing that a character is unplayable due to a single enhancement change is assinine, there are many many ways to get around the change. All it takes is a little thought.

BTW- none of the things I've tried involved re-rolling anyone. I reroll characters when I feel like trying something new, NOT because I am not happy with a skill or enhancement.

I doubt it truely broke a character to the point it's not playable but I can see how some would feel the nerf to it made their character less enjoyable to play. Now you cannot deny that. Across the borad on the nerf human characters lost 5 passive skill points to every skill... they no longer jumped, tumbled, hid, DD'd... or Umd'd as well passively.

On another note...
1.) A 20 second boost is hardly worth the AP spent. In the new coming update to it HV is still very weak in comparison to other racial enhancement lines. Ie.) a 20 second +5 ac boost 5 x rest is nothing compared to dwarven armour mastery III (+3 AC all the time) likewise a +5 20 second damage boost x5 is nothing compared to +2 passive axe or longsword damage. Take Madstone crator on elite and tell me how effective 5 20 second boosts would be in there between shrines then compare that to an elven attack II or dwarven damage II effectiveness. If you can tell me that madstone requires a total of 1 min and 40 seconds of actual mob encounter between shrines I'd agree but I bet my best guess isthe average madstone run takes a total of 20 minutes. Puls should you do speed runs nobody will care to wait for you to recharge or wait for your cooldowns...

2.) What's more a boost has a cooldown... there is a manditory 10 sec? between each boost... also within the first 2 seconds of boost you cannot perform another action, your character stops attacking, you cannot hit an active skill or feat button, I've tested this plenty of times with the old fighter action boosts, you cannot cleave, trip or even attack within the first two seconds of a boost so it's really an 18 second boost even with auto on or off... technically the first 2 seconds of a 20 second boost is unused which i suppose constitutes a DDO round? They should label it as 18 seconds.

I feel it's a step in the right direction but still the new HV is not that great of an enhancement line. HV would be a more useful emhancement as a +2 passive one to a skill, or to-hit, or damage, or DC of your choice. Plus what they should do is add another 7 enhancements to the human race since there are only 4 (technically 3). Choice is versitility.

[Dirac]

I prefer the term "Residual Nerdrage" to "Nostalgia", if you please.


It's the only change to this game I haven't been able to shrug off. 50 years from now when they change the chocolate pudding to lime jello on Wednesday nights in my retirement home, you can expect to hear me gripe "Oh, so now they are ruining dessert on Wednesday's, huh?! Reminds me of that time Turbine nerfed Human Versatility back in 07!!! One of the Devs is probably working in the kitchen now!"

Man Dariun, you and me both. Very funny. BTW, just because HV threads are not posted every day does not mean those affected forgot or forgave.

[MtnLion]

You mean anywhere near as much as +5 to hit, or +5 damage will benefit a melee combatant, or anywhere near as much as +5 skills will benefit a Rogue?

Let's be serious here.

Okay, let's be serious, do you think that HV is that valuable for a fighter? To-hit bonus can be gathered with a fighter enhancement, for a stand-off in difference. Same with a rogue.

There is only one real value for HV and that is the UMD, which is just as valuable to a caster (a sorcerer casting divine spells, for instance) as any other class. You can make an argument that Multiclass benefit more from HV than pure classes, but that really is not what this thread is about.

There are valid reasons to roll a human wizard or sorcerer. There are also valid reasons to roll a human fighter or rogue. Enhancement chains that benefit all classes are available in lieu of HV, one need only determine what one needs.

[Emili]

Okay, let's be serious, do you think that HV is that valuable for a fighter? To-hit bonus can be gathered with a fighter enhancement, for a stand-off in difference. Same with a rogue.

There is only one real value for HV and that is the UMD, which is just as valuable to a caster (a sorcerer casting divine spells, for instance) as any other class. You can make an argument that Multiclass benefit more from HV than pure classes, but that really is not what this thread is about.

There are valid reasons to roll a human wizard or sorcerer. There are also valid reasons to roll a human fighter or rogue. Enhancement chains that benefit all classes are available in lieu of HV, one need only determine what one needs.

You get that same thing in every other race should you wish to stick to straight class enhancements on an elven wiz you can just as well as a human... the only reason to be human are the extra feat and skill points alloted by core rule because technically the only two useful enhancements among a human are adaptability as it stands right now.

[MtnLion]

You get that same thing in every other race should you wish to stick to straight class enhancements on an elven wiz you can just as well as a human... the only reason to be human are the extra feat and skill points alloted by core rule because technically the only two useful enhancements among a human are adaptability as it stands right now.

Thanks, I think I was headed that way as I wrote that last line. The point is that the proposed HV line introduces nothing new for any class. The OP though is asking for new enhancements to benefit his particular build (I assume human wizard that benefits most from HA).

[SneakThief]

That argument is kind of backwards... of all the casters... only ONE has UMD. So to say that it's "balanced" because many Sorcs and some Wizards make use of a single particular skill (that they don't even have on their classlist) is backwards.

Any Paladin could use the same argument... in fact, any FIGHTER could.

So no, that argument doesn't fly.

Skills my casters use regularly:
UMD
Diplomacy
Haggle
Jump
Tumble
Concentration
Balance

A bump to any one of those is nice, expecially a stackable bump.

I personally also would use the AC, and as you said saves.
Plenty of clerics and bards actually fight, and every little bit of boost makes a difference.

Yeah ... most Wiz/Sorc are going to be using 2/5 of them, but thats hardly nothing.

[Dingo123]

Skills my casters use regularly:
UMD
Diplomacy
Haggle
Jump
Tumble
Concentration
Balance

A bump to any one of those is nice, expecially a stackable bump.

I personally also would use the AC, and as you said saves.
Plenty of clerics and bards actually fight, and every little bit of boost makes a difference.

Yeah ... most Wiz/Sorc are going to be using 2/5 of them, but thats hardly nothing.

But again, and look at it... which of these is made to benefit the human caster?

I mean you're listing cross class skills for god sake, things that are secondary in purpose.

If you walked into a group and were like Hey guys, I know I'm level 6 but I never bothered to put any points into my relevant stat... but I've got a great tumble! you'd be thrown out of the team.

Further, benefits to skills benefit everyone else, if not more so, than they do Casters.

Finally,I've never said get rid of the skill based enhancement, I recognize that many builds depend on it.

What I DID say is take away one of the TWO fighter centric enhancements (accuracy AND damage? While casters get nothing?) and turn it into a Caster centric HV enhancement.

[Hvymetal]

But again, and look at it... which of these is made to benefit the human caster?

I mean you're listing cross class skills for god sake, things that are secondary in purpose.

If you walked into a group and were like Hey guys, I know I'm level 6 but I never bothered to put any points into my relevant stat... but I've got a great tumble! you'd be thrown out of the team.

Further, benefits to skills benefit everyone else, if not more so, than they do Casters.

Finally,I've never said get rid of the skill based enhancement, I recognize that many builds depend on it.

What I DID say is take away one of the TWO fighter centric enhancements (accuracy AND damage? While casters get nothing?) and turn it into a Caster centric HV enhancement.

Just curious, do you feel that your human caster cannot function right now as things are? Why do you feel that human casters need a human-centric enhancement?

[Dingo123]

Just curious, do you feel that your human caster cannot function right now as things are? Why do you feel that human casters need a human-centric enhancement?

You could strip away every enhancement in the game and every single character out there would still be "functional". Clerics could still heal, Fighters could still swing a sword, Dwarves would still take a lot of hits.

The point isn't making it "functional", it's about making it better. That's why they're called "enhancements".

Currently, Human Enhancements are far more geared towards combatants and skills based characters.

Seriously, who is going to get more use out of Human Improved Recovery... a Wizard, or a Barbarian?

Then consider Human Adaptibility. Let's say a Sorc takes +1 to Charisma, and a Fighter takes +1 to strength.

Who sees that enhancement put to use more often? The Fighter, far far more often. The number of spells a Sorceror casts is neglible compared to the number of times a Fighter swings his sword. You could argue that charisma benefits certain skills for Sorcs, such as UMD... well, Strength benefits certain skills for Fighters, as well as giving a boost to encumbrance.

Net Win is the Fighter, again.

The with the proposed changes to Human Versatility, each and all benefit others far more than they do Sorcs, Wizards, etc etc...


Humans seemed to be geared AGAINST Casters as the benefits for Casters are mediocre compared to that of meleeists.