Human Versatility: Casters? Take a Hike!

[Dariun]

Wrong. They nerfed it because Human Rogues could get a much higher Disable Device score than every other race.

lol, no.

It was UMD and batman builds.





Edit: to clarify, yes Humans could get +4 DD v. Drow, but no one cared. It was the UMD and Batman builds that got people upset.

[Dingo123]

And comparably useless to Wizards, and Sorcs who weren't specifically built for a particular skill.

[MtnLion]

Wrong. They nerfed it because Human Rogues could get a much higher Disable Device score than every other race.

In light of the Cabal for One trap (on elite) I wouldn't call a couple of points "Much" higher.

Where I felt it most was on my multi-classed's UMD, not so much on DD, or even Search.

Take note, my MC was built to use a specific skill, as any class can be, including casters.

[Dingo123]

The changes already made to human versatility will benefit everyone specifically but not casters.

Stop threadjacking people. =)

This isn't about HV Nostalgia.

[Dariun]

This isn't about HV Nostalgia.

I prefer the term "Residual Nerdrage" to "Nostalgia", if you please.


It's the only change to this game I haven't been able to shrug off. 50 years from now when they change the chocolate pudding to lime jello on Wednesday nights in my retirement home, you can expect to hear me gripe "Oh, so now they are ruining dessert on Wednesday's, huh?! Reminds me of that time Turbine nerfed Human Versatility back in 07!!! One of the Devs is probably working in the kitchen now!"

[Ziggy]

I prefer the term "Residual Nerdrage" to "Nostalgia", if you please.


It's the only change to this game I haven't been able to shrug off. 50 years from now when they change the chocolate pudding to lime jello on Wednesday nights in my retirement home, you can expect to hear me gripe "Oh, so now they are ruining dessert on Wednesday's, huh?! Reminds me of that time Turbine nerfed Human Versatility back in 07!!! One of the Devs is probably working in the kitchen now!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[TEK]

I prefer the term "Residual Nerdrage" to "Nostalgia", if you please.


It's the only change to this game I haven't been able to shrug off. 50 years from now when they change the chocolate pudding to lime jello on Wednesday nights in my retirement home, you can expect to hear me gripe "Oh, so now they are ruining dessert on Wednesday's, huh?! Reminds me of that time Turbine nerfed Human Versatility back in 07!!! One of the Devs is probably working in the kitchen now!"

QFT

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[MtnLion]

The changes already made to human versatility will benefit everyone specifically but not casters.

Stop threadjacking people. =)

This isn't about HV Nostalgia.

It will benefit casters if you have a mind for it to benefit YOUR caster.

[Dingo123]

It will benefit casters if you have a mind for it to benefit YOUR caster.

You mean anywhere near as much as +5 to hit, or +5 damage will benefit a melee combatant, or anywhere near as much as +5 skills will benefit a Rogue?

Let's be serious here.

[sigtrent]

The whole purpose the Dev's nerfed the HV was because of the "batman" build which utilized scrolls for increased ppl performance and *would you believe, VERSITILITY*

Did a dev tell you that or is that just conjecture.

The developers I talked to mentioned that HV was a massive skill bonus for a very small cost and was not at all on par with other skill based enhancements that practicaly focred skill based characters to roll humans or be obsolecent by comparison.

[sigtrent]

Edit: to clarify, yes Humans could get +4 DD v. Drow, but no one cared. It was the UMD and Batman builds that got people upset.

That would be an interesting theorey except that humans can still use UMD to do whatever they like and Batman builds work as well as they ever did. The loss of HV was not nearly as significant to them as the shift in Melee dynamics in the gianthold quests where the monsters could easily hit and kill the relatively fragile Batman tanks. So it wasn't their skills that died, it was thier tanking abbility and that has nothing to do with HV.

[GeneralDiomedes]

lol, no.

It was UMD and batman builds.





Edit: to clarify, yes Humans could get +4 DD v. Drow, but no one cared. It was the UMD and Batman builds that got people upset.

Actually it was evasion in full plate that made people upset. I don't recall anyone complaining bitterly about HV actually. It was only after the 3.3 changes were announced that the more petty among the forum population decided to get their digs in.

And the official DEV explanation (from the respected HSinclair) was that Human Rogues could get higher rogue skills than any other race.

[Dariun]

That would be an interesting theorey except that humans can still use UMD to do whatever they like

That's an interesting theory, except that the HV boost to UMD no longer stacks with Rogue/Ranger Action Boost and is not static and is thus worthless for things like regular wand/scroll usage or switching between various RR weapons/equipment.

So, if by "whatever they like" you mean Human non-rogue and non-rangers can still get a 20 second boost to UMD 5 times per rest, then I agree with you. But if by "whatever they like" you mean the HV bonus to UMD is as effective as it use to be, then I'm afraid I'll have to disagree just a little bit.

As for the HV change not hurting batman builds, I basically agree completely. I didn't say it was *effective* at ruining batman builds; I just said it was *intended* to.

Frankly, I think the developers involved had a poor understanding of the game mechanics and the balance between races and classes. In particular, there seemed to be a complete inability to understand the pure human rogues, rangers, and bards.

All the threads are gone now, but I remember a lot of silly dev comments like "rogues are primarily about DPS" and "all the races are balanced" and genius stuff like that that was generally supported (by devs or posters) with bizarre conflations of PnP and DDO rules, logical fallacies, half truths, and silly assertions that were either inspired by the worst kind of CYA PR BS or willful ignorance.

Not that it still bugs me or anything...

[Dariun]

Actually it was evasion in full plate that made people upset. I don't recall anyone complaining bitterly about HV actually. It was only after the 3.3 changes were announced that the more petty among the forum population decided to get their digs in.

And the official DEV explanation (from the respected HSinclair) was that Human Rogues could get higher rogue skills than any other race.

You missed about 3000 posts if you don't remember the complaints about HV in 3.3.

HSinclair said a bunch of things, many of them like "it's hard to implement skills in this game like PnP so we think rogues should be a damage dealing class, wait till you see the lvl 13 feat!!!" (lol at crippling strike...).

I don't remember her or anyone really arguing the "human rogues can get higher rogue skills and this is breaking DDO!!!!!" No one has ever presented a convincing explanation for *why* it would matter if a human rogue had +4 DD v. drow or +3 spot v. drow or +2 search v. drow (drow had other advantages to compensate), especially since now drow have +1 DD v. human, +2 spot v. human and +3 search v. human (not to mention + 1 UMD, haggle, diplomacy, bluff, hide, move silently and +1 reflex), and no developers seem to be crying a river...

[jkm]

it seems to me, that the changes to the boost are just a lazy way of getting the human in line with the other races enhancement-wise. of all the races, only halflings can argue that racial enhancements do nothing to make their class individually better. thus the improvements to both halflings and humans. yet they messed it up. sigh.

dwarves -> 12 enhancement lines
drow -> 11 enhancement lines (5 drow + 6 elven)
elves -> 11 enhancement lines
wf -> 9 enhancement lines
halflings -> 11 enhancement lines
humans -> 3 enhancement lines (adaptability and greater are the same as the other racial lines that count as 1)

of these only 1 enhancement (halfling companion) is a boost and it lasts 300 seconds.

humans get a skill boost for 20 seconds and improved recovery.

skill boost -> enough time to cast 3 scrolls, buy 18 potions, either 1 search and 1 disable or 2 searches. does not stack with any other boosts, puts other boosts on a timer, etc.

human improved recovery - this is the one that bothers me more than human versatility.

2 action points for 10% better healing. this is so horribly underpowered it isn't funny. so on a clw we get 1 extra point of healing, on a csw we get 3, on a heal scroll we get 10. this is the only non-attribute score enhancement humans get and its benefit over a quest, may, may be the equivalent of a dwarven toughness depending on your class.

what it should be is

HIR 1 - 1 AP 25% more healing capped at 10
HIR 2 - 2 AP 50% more healing capped at 20
HIR 3 - 3 AP 75% more healing capped at 30
HIR 4 - 4 AP 100% more healing capped at 40

[Thame]

Human versatility is absolutely useless unles your using it for UMD. So a human rogue would benefit but it doesnt stack with the rogue skills boost so again no point in taking it. They need to put it back the way it was.
I have a wizard that WAS cha based as well as int and could use UMD to rez or heal on occasion. Used it to apply RR items so on so on, now hes gimped. I only use him to run POP for FOD or pks. No point using him elsewhere. My other toons that were UMD based I ended up having to delete them entirely. To make up for the lost UMD would take them till lvl 18 so no point to keep them.
But the devs will never understand nor care about this anyway.

[Daddy]

if they'd just put it back the way is was everything would be great again. i still want my skills back.

[jkm]

here are some human enhancement ideas

human improved weapon attack 1, 2 and human improved weapon damage 1, 2

humans gain a static attack and damage boosts to all weapons (could be by weapon type - simple, martial, exotic, etc)

human scroll alacrity 1, 2 - human scroll cooldowns are 25%, 50% faster

human casting alacrity 1, 2 - humans cast spells 5, 10% faster

human weapon affinity 1, 2 - humans gain a +1, +2 to bypassing weapon race restrictions

all skills 1-2-3-4

[Sue_Dark]

Human versatility is absolutely useless unles your using it for UMD. So a human rogue would benefit but it doesnt stack with the rogue skills boost so again no point in taking it. They need to put it back the way it was.
I have a wizard that WAS cha based as well as int and could use UMD to rez or heal on occasion. Used it to apply RR items so on so on, now hes gimped. I only use him to run POP for FOD or pks. No point using him elsewhere. My other toons that were UMD based I ended up having to delete them entirely. To make up for the lost UMD would take them till lvl 18 so no point to keep them.
But the devs will never understand nor care about this anyway.

Now this I find really funny. Saying that the change of an enhancement broke your characters, screams to me that YOU broke them and then made up for that with HV. Arguing that a character is unplayable due to a single enhancement change is assinine, there are many many ways to get around the change. All it takes is a little thought.

BTW- none of the things I've tried involved re-rolling anyone. I reroll characters when I feel like trying something new, NOT because I am not happy with a skill or enhancement.

[Dariun]

Now this I find really funny. Saying that the change of an enhancement broke your characters, screams to me that YOU broke them and then made up for that with HV. Arguing that a character is unplayable due to a single enhancement change is assinine, there are many many ways to get around the change. All it takes is a little thought.

Now this I find really funny. Because it shows a complete failure to understand.