Why do dwarfs get dex bonus to armor not elf's

[tihocan]

I find this enhancement line to be really overpowered already for dwarves. Giving it to elves/drow would be even more overpowered, considering they can easily get +4 Dex than dwarves. At least dwarves need to make some sacrifices to take advantage of it.

[Emili]

I find this enhancement line to be really overpowered already for dwarves. Giving it to elves/drow would be even more overpowered, considering they can easily get +4 Dex than dwarves. At least dwarves need to make some sacrifices to take advantage of it.

Actually, I agree to that to a point... I believe though is what the OP is seeing is that the dwarven lines tend to allow for a much more balanced character than any other race due to the fact you can even out the enhacements to shore up the weakness or lack of feat. The OP's statement is that dwarves get dwarven armour mastery III a dex mod increase to armour, now people can argue putting it on an elf would be way overpowering... but let's look at another dwarven line? Dwarven toughness married with dwarven con? There lies in the same situation as if you had a line of Elven Armour Mastery. Point being some dev did not see a problem reinforcing stat increase with another enhancement line there. Why I do not advocate adding a dex armour line nor eliminating the dwarven ... I'd have to agree with the OP the the current enhancement lines pigion hole racial classes while restricting the use of others to some extent, thus the variety of race/class among the populace falls into extremes.

[bandyman1]

Actually, I agree to that to a point... I believe though is what the OP is seeing is that the dwarven lines tend to allow for a much more balanced character than any other race due to the fact you can even out the enhacements to shore up the weakness or lack of feat. The OP's statement is that dwarves get dwarven armour mastery III a dex mod increase to armour, now people can argue putting it on an elf would be way overpowering... but let's look at another dwarven line? Dwarven toughness married with dwarven con? There lies in the same situation as if you had a line of Elven Armour Mastery. Point being some dev did not see a problem reinforcing stat increase with another enhancement line there. Why I do not advocate adding a dex armour line nor eliminating the dwarven ... I'd have to agree with the OP the the current enhancement lines pigion hole racial classes while restricting the use of others to some extent, thus the variety of race/class among the populace falls into extremes.

QFT and VERY well said.

[jkm]

a dwarven fighter in mithral full plate (medium) can have the same max dex bonus as an elven fighter in a mithral chain shirt (light). i'm not saying its right or wrong, but generating a +9 dex bonus out of medium armor seems overpowered.

[Mad_Bombardier]

a dwarven fighter in mithral full plate (medium) can have the same max dex bonus as an elven fighter in a mithral chain shirt (light). i'm not saying its right or wrong, but generating a +9 dex bonus out of medium armor seems overpowered.

If you take all six enhancements, a Dwarven Fighter can have MORE max dex in medium armor than a character in Padded (the lightest armor).

[Ziggy]

a dwarven fighter in mithral full plate (medium) can have the same max dex bonus as an elven fighter in a mithral chain shirt (light). i'm not saying its right or wrong, but generating a +9 dex bonus out of medium armor seems overpowered.

If you take all six enhancements, a Dwarven Fighter can have MORE max dex in medium armor than a character in Padded (the lightest armor).

Yeah but it is easier for that elf to get the max dex then it is for a dwarf.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Yeah but it is easier for that elf to get the max dex then it is for a dwarf.

Meh, I got my Dwarf to +7 DEX bonus purdy durn easily. <3 +20 AC from armor & dex.

[jkm]

a dwarf in heavy armor (tourney) can get the same as padded...

[Roguewiz]

Here is a question for those that are defending the Dwarven enhancements:

If enhancements didn't exist, which would you play, Human Fighter or Dwarf Fighter?

If you can honestly days, without personal preference, that you'd still play a Dwarf over a human...then I have no problems with the Dwarven enhancements. However, if you would have to question your choice between human and dwarf, then that alone shows that their enhancements are too powerful. It is one thing to have an advantage, however when it is this big, it is too much.

And to the poster that said halflings and elves, should be restricted to light and medium armor, I totally disagree. Keep in mind that size modifiers for equipment do not exist in this game. Halfling armor is half the size and weight of armor worn by a medium sized race. Also keep in mind, that in every society there is always those that go "against the grain". So while the vast majority of Elves would say be Wizards and Finesse-types, there are those that prefer strength over finesse, hense they necessity of having Heavy Armor.

[Ziggy]

Meh, I got my Dwarf to +7 DEX bonus purdy durn easily. <3 +20 AC from armor & dex.

a 24 Dex? what were your starting stats? and what + was the TOME you ate?

[Mercules]

Have you ever actually read Lord of the Rings???

I don't think anyone would argue that the fellowship members are paragons of their respective races, so lets review, shall we?

In book II, chapter VI ( Lothlorien ) of The Fellowship of the Ring, we see the companions being lead across the river Celebrant. The elves used a single rope line to cross the river. Of the companions, only Legolas possessed the balance and agility to do this. He also walked on snow during the snowstorm in the pass. Something NONE of the other companions including Gandalf could do. Yes, he is agile that doesn't mean is is agile in Full Plate.

During the chase of the orcs holding Pippen and Merry hostage, it was Gimli that asked for rest, and Legolas that urged for pushing onwards. When Aragorn made the call to rest for the night, Gimli went straight to sleep, while Legolas stayed awake fretful that they had made a mistake by stopping, and when the Dwarf was roused, set off again without slowing in the slightest.Elves also never fall sick or die of old age, does this mean they should have a Con bonus?

There are too many examples to cite one of the superiority of elven eyesight.
What would this even have to do with the arguement about dexterity bonus in armor?

So...by these three examples alone, elves are more balanced and agile, have more endurance, and can see far better than dwarves. Legolas is MUCH more agile and Gimil, he also doesn't wear heavy armor like Gimli does, in fact he wears basically clothing. I guess that would mean that he doesn't get a bonus to the Max Dex limitation on armor and so chose to go with clothes to get his full Dex bonus to AC. That sure doesn't support your argument of Elves being better suited to having that enhancement.

Sure you only want to use Tolkien for "lore"?

Anyone who's ever read the players handbook knows that elves receive martial training ( longswords, rapiers, and bows ) from birth. They also know that human nobles often seek elven masters to teach swordsmanship to their children, and that elves consider swordplay fascinating. They are however, far more likely to rely on speed and agility ( vs. the dwarves tendency to rely on brute str. and toughness ) to win fights.

Correct, again, what is your point? That they make great prestige class candidates for things like Swashbucklers? Dwarves gain martial training from birth as well, so much more that their favored Class is FIGHTER while an Elf's favorite class is Wizard. So basically Dwarves having a martial favored class means they have even MORE training from birth than you pointed out for elves, right?

Now for the justification why Dwarves have Armored Agility and Mastery. For this we need to see what is missing from DDO that is in D&D. For one thing movement speeds. Dwarves move a bit slower than other races their size because of their shorter legs. However, dwarves do NOT slow down when wearing heavy armor. Carrying a heavy load counts as armor for this so Dwarves do not slow down at all.

Favored classes also tend to be missing. Elven Arcane Fluidity represents their favored class of Wizard allowing them to wear armor and still cast spells. The Dwarven enhancements in question also reflect Fighter being their favored class. Halflings' favored class is Rogue and so they get enhancements that add to Flanking attacks and such things.

Dwarves, as a race, tend to wear heavy armor. This enhancement shows the training that even non-Fighter Dwarves get in maneuvering in armor.

[MtnLion]

Yeah but it is easier for that elf to get the max dex then it is for a dwarf.

Only if one assumes that the dwarf is not a dex build and the elf is.

[Ziggy]

Only if one assumes that the dwarf is not a dex build and the elf is.

not really. Elves get
a)+2 to maximum Dex(meaning it costs them less to get to 18 then a Dwarf)
b) +3 Dex enhancements that Dwarves dont.

So thats +5 Dex that dwarves dont have access to.

[MtnLion]

...
And to the poster that said halflings and elves, should be restricted to light and medium armor, I totally disagree. ...

You can, if you wish, but consider what a halfling is. Halflings by definition avoid travelling, avoid fighting, actually prefer to go unshod. If they don't wear any protection for their feet, why would they wear any armor, at all, save the lightest, least restricing possible.

Now, by PnP Halflings have a penalty to strength and carrying capacity, which is reflected in DDO. It should be reinforced, though, since apparently many are working their way around it in DDO.

Don't think I said elves, but if I did, I withdraw that.

[MtnLion]

not really. Elves get
a)+2 to maximum Dex(meaning it costs them less to get to 18 then a Dwarf)
b) +3 Dex enhancements that Dwarves dont.

So thats +5 Dex that dwarves dont have access to.

So, you are saying that the elf is a dex build?

Only if one assumes that the dwarf is not a dex build and the elf is.

My point is that something is completely out of kilter when a dwarven fighter has more than +3 dex bonus, even at level 20. We are seeing a lot more at level 14 or lower.

[Ziggy]

So, you are saying that the elf is a dex build?



My point is that something is completely out of kilter when a dwarven fighter has more than +3 dex bonus, even at level 20. We are seeing a lot more at level 14 or lower.

But dwarves Can be built for dex. I was saying Its easier for an elf as a race.

If that is what you meant as well, then some wires were crossed, as i took it to mean something different.

[Emili]

Only if one assumes that the dwarf is not a dex build and the elf is.

Exactly, not only that it's very easy to put a str built dwarf to a ligit effective dex utilizing the enhancements ie.) 24 dex ... a start if 16 dex need only be requied 16 +2 tome +6 item. A dwarf with a 16 dex is easy with 32 spend points. Now why not Max it's a signifcant increase balancing out the fighter it ends up with a high str a decent AC just below the maxes and a very high con also. Defining them well in ALL areas of melee and ranged combat since so many stats are in effect. All other races fall short in these areas by at least 2 mod points. An easy offensive/defensive ranger ... Dwarf ranger splash fighter = great twf, much tougher to achieve in any other race. Easily dwarves turn out to be easy to build into the ranks of the best Barbs even Pallys (where CHA is not thier forte) in comparison to other races where more thought must be put forth to achieve a good result. Try a Battle-cleric... dwarf is an easy candidate there - you have more AC, HP and SP options at your disposal.

To state that Dwarven Armour Mastery is in effect reinforcing Favored class is ridiculas - all classes rely on dex based AC it is not a attribute exclusive to the fighter class. To explain it away as dwarves are metal workers... well Mith are perfections of the elven realms thus Elven chain... just because you mine all day long does not mean all your forges magical nor does the smithing of such guarentee military prowess. Even should you fall back on lore ... the lore of Eberon is house Denieth is the greatest military power... not Kundarak... so then why is Eberon not filled with more adventurers who were once Denieth mecenaries right now? Well, looking arround at the current adventurer pool I'd have to say Eberon lore is wrong as their is a sea of fat halfings clad in armour;-)

[MtnLion]

But dwarves Can be built for dex. I was saying Its easier for an elf as a race.

If that is what you meant as well, then some wires were crossed, as i took it to mean something different.

It is easier to build an elf for dex based fighting, but; considering what has been revealed in this thread; would anybody?

[Mercules]

It is easier to build an elf for dex based fighting, but; considering what has been revealed in this thread; would anybody?

Bracers of Armor +6 = NO max Dex

[Mad_Bombardier]

not really. Elves get
a)+2 to maximum Dex(meaning it costs them less to get to 18 then a Dwarf)
b) +3 Dex enhancements that Dwarves dont.

So thats +5 Dex that dwarves dont have access to.

Elven DEX is only +2. So, +2 base +2 enhance = +4 DEX (+2 modifier) to which Dwarves don't have access.