Why two-handers fall behind in AC.

[rikori2]

I was discussing DDO with one of my gaming buddies. I was lamenting that my two handed weapon fighter was falling behind in AC, even while getting expensive items like chaosgarde and enhancements like armor mastery. He said, "Do you have improved buckler defense?" And than everything fell into place. In DDO, shields start giving +6-7 AC more than a two handed weapon user can muster. So, therefore, I propose improved buckler defense should be added to the game.

[Vyctor]

DDO doesn't even allow bucklers to be equipped while wielding two-handed, afaik, so improved buckler defense would do nothing....

[bandyman1]

Grab yourself some shield clickies. +4 shield bonus to AC while THFing.

[ccheath776]

There is ways to make up for the lack of AC for two handers. I dunno, My two handed fighter Terrah has a 40 ac.

But it does take careful building and some nice loot to make it all work however.

[Shade]

40AC is a joke these days in nearly any quest worth doing. 50 is the bare minimum mark to noticeably tank better then the guy next to you with 10 AC.

Two-Handed melee have less AC because they cant use a shield.

9 AC is allot.
Shield clickies are annoying, 1minuit (-6 seconds for the time wasted using the stupid clicky) is just too short. And I prefer rage clickys, love that -2 AC +2 STR. Perhaps if they come out with higher caster lvl shield clickies like the good ol titan cookies the gap will close some.

For now us poor two hander guys have to go and hotkey a shield and actually click on it to get the same AC... Oh the pain!

While for the high AC 1hander guy to get the same DPS, he just click his sword of shadd..... Oh wait no he cant get the same DPS because he didnt take the two handed feats, sucks for him.

[Seneca_Windforge]

That's the tradeoff -- increased damage for less AC. If you could get the same AC with two weapons or two-handed weapons that you could with the weapon/shield combo, there would be no reason to use weapon/shield at all.

Frankly, I think that the problem lies more with extremely high monster attack rolls on elite than with a lack of feats such as Improved Buckler Defense.

[Tavok]

40AC is a joke these days in nearly any quest worth doing. 50 is the bare minimum mark to noticeably tank better then the guy next to you with 10 AC.

Two-Handed melee have less AC because they cant use a shield.

9 AC is allot.
Shield clickies are annoying, 1minuit (-6 seconds for the time wasted using the stupid clicky) is just too short. And I prefer rage clickys, love that -2 AC +2 STR. Perhaps if they come out with higher caster lvl shield clickies like the good ol titan cookies the gap will close some.

For now us poor two hander guys have to go and hotkey a shield and actually click on it to get the same AC... Oh the pain!

While for the high AC 1hander guy to get the same DPS, he just click his sword of shadd..... Oh wait no he cant get the same DPS because he didnt take the two handed feats, sucks for him.

I would say the breaking point is 46-48 on norm, 50 for hard, and 55 for elite.

[Averroes]

Perhaps if they come out with higher caster lvl shield clickies like the good ol titan cookies the gap will close some.

10th level wands of shield are around. A pally/fighter or fighter/pally with high 20s umd can maintain low- to mid-50s AC with a two-handed weapon with the right gear.

Obviously the -5AC from the shield spell as opposed to a tower makes a difference, but that's potentially all your giving up.


I should farm for the SOS on my intimitank... Spamming intimidate with a two-handed weapon would be great fun. There's all sorts of stuff that would still only hit him on a 20.

[Strakeln]

AC becomes an afterthought when you kill almost anything in 2-4 swings. In that time, the mobs are still buffing themselves

[Paragon]

Grab yourself some shield clickies. +4 shield bonus to AC while THFing.

Yeah with these all you are losing is 3 ac over using a real shield. Or 5 instead of a tower. But really if THF guys could compete in ac with sword and board or tower users why would anyone play sword and board? THF would give the same thing with better dps.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

But really if THF guys could compete in ac with sword and board or tower users why would anyone play sword and board? THF would give the same thing with better dps.

QFT.

[PurdueDave]

40AC is a joke these days in nearly any quest worth doing. 50 is the bare minimum mark to noticeably tank better then the guy next to you with 10 AC.

Two-Handed melee have less AC because they cant use a shield.

9 AC is allot.
Shield clickies are annoying, 1minuit (-6 seconds for the time wasted using the stupid clicky) is just too short. And I prefer rage clickys, love that -2 AC +2 STR. Perhaps if they come out with higher caster lvl shield clickies like the good ol titan cookies the gap will close some.

For now us poor two hander guys have to go and hotkey a shield and actually click on it to get the same AC... Oh the pain!

While for the high AC 1hander guy to get the same DPS, he just click his sword of shadd..... Oh wait no he cant get the same DPS because he didnt take the two handed feats, sucks for him.

That's pretty much the dope on it.

If Turbine wanted to inject some PnP AC love to THF then they should just add a trinket to the game called "animated shield" that gives a +4 shield bonus to AC. Maybe lesser +3, normal +4, greater +5 for some variety.

For feats in PnP, I've never had a player take imp buckler defense...all opted instead for the animated shield path (at 2-4X the cost it's not a cheap route, but feats are precious). For feat AC in PnP my players tend to go with CE, ICE (improved comat expertise, like the old enhancement), elusive target (target gets no benefit from power attack), & titan fighting (racial dodge vs giants applies to anything larger than you).

[Wightscion]

Instead of focusing on AC so much as a two hander, try focusing on hit points instead. You will be pleasantly surprised.

[Snike]

Someone decides to carry a shield. Some decides not to.

Why would they both be close to having the same AC?!?!

Some decides to wear armor. Someone decides not to.

... get the point?

[QuantumFX]

Most of you guys are missing the OP's point. Shields need to be fixed in this game.

The current - crappy - implementation of shields is going to encourage more bizarre class combos in the future. (ex. 1x Ranger/1 Monk) It also discourages the porting of solid P&P build strategies. (TWF + Shield Bash or TWF + Imp. Buckler Defense.) This same implementation interferes with introducing double weapons (The real reason to make a TWF dwarf.)

[Ghoste]

Get yourself a 100% fortification item and a fearsome robe of axeblock. Screw ac.

[TreknaQudane]

I thought you couldn't use the AC of a buckler if you were attacking also.. it was one or the other, it just allowed you to have a shield equipped with a 2Hander.

[QuantumFX]

I thought you couldn't use the AC of a buckler if you were attacking also.. it was one or the other, it just allowed you to have a shield equipped with a 2Hander.

The Improved Buckler Defense feat allows you to keep the AC bonus of the buckler while dual weilding. You suffer a -1 to hit with the offhand weapon though.

[ccheath776]

40AC is a joke these days in nearly any quest worth doing. 50 is the bare minimum mark to noticeably tank better then the guy next to you with 10 AC.

Two-Handed melee have less AC because they cant use a shield.

9 AC is allot.
Shield clickies are annoying, 1minuit (-6 seconds for the time wasted using the stupid clicky) is just too short. And I prefer rage clickys, love that -2 AC +2 STR. Perhaps if they come out with higher caster lvl shield clickies like the good ol titan cookies the gap will close some.

For now us poor two hander guys have to go and hotkey a shield and actually click on it to get the same AC... Oh the pain!

While for the high AC 1hander guy to get the same DPS, he just click his sword of shadd..... Oh wait no he cant get the same DPS because he didnt take the two handed feats, sucks for him.

40 ac holds its water on most quests. In the upper level quests a 50 ac wouldnt do you any good anyway so no matter what ac you have its bunk.

[rikori2]

Someone decides to carry a shield. Some decides not to.

Why would they both be close to having the same AC?!?!

Some decides to wear armor. Someone decides not to.

... get the point?

The issue is that the range of randomness is always 20. Essentially, it breaks down into 1 point = 5%.

So, at level 1, the shield user has 2 more ac = -10% damage.
At level 14, the shield user has 7-9 more ac = -35 to 45% damage. That means a twf or thf ends up taking 45% more blows. When the mobs are only missing 45% of the time, that puts you on the same level as the guy running around naked. Explain that to me.