WF and Shrines

[rimble]

Using a rest shrine is conceptually the equivalent of resting for eight hours, which is why non-permanent effects go away when you use one. At the end of the eight hours, fleshies are healed by their good night's sleep, and warforged are partially repaired.

Warforged do not naturally heal over time (though on the bright side, they don't bleed out either if rendered unconscious), which is why they do not receive their level in hit points after a night's rest in the equation.

Well. That makes sense.

[Shade]

fleshies are healed by their good night's sleep, and warforged are partially repaired.

But my dwarf barbarian dies from using the rest shrine often too..

I kinda think id be smart enough to not overexert and kill myself when im trying to rest and heal up.. tho I do only have 8 int.

[Laith]

It should be exactly like heal, there is no good reason for it not to be. I just want to mention that Negative energy spells having full effect is something that should be explained by either Keith Baker or who ever created Warforged. If positive energy is not as potent to a WF then negative energy should not be either. I would imagine that because WF get so many immunities that it would be unfair for them to have resistance to negative energy but it just seems logical. I hate when logic is sacrificed for balance.

negative energy spells are necromancy, and positive energy spells are "conjuration (healing)".

there is an inherent difference to how these spells work, and WF have no protections against necromatic effects.

[rimble]

But my dwarf barbarian dies from using the rest shrine often too..

I kinda think id be smart enough to not overexert and kill myself when im trying to rest and heal up.. tho I do only have 8 int.

That's not fair to blame the rest shrine. The rest shrine simulates the "8 hours of rest" that is required in PnP. The rest shrine just compresses that to 10 seconds for us, because waiting at your keyboard for 8 hours isn't fun.

You know you're raged, you know you're gonna keel over dead, heal up before you sit around for 8 hours.

Heck, we see this scenario in PnP all the time after combat has ended...the Barbarian shoves his way to the front of the 'healing queue' yelling "I got 12 seconds to live, you heal now!!"

[Laith]

Heck, we see this scenario in PnP all the time after combat has ended...the Barbarian shoves his way to the front of the 'healing queue' yelling "I got 12 seconds to live, you heal now!!"

hahaha.

it should probably be a bit more like "Wow, these wounds really ARE deep. I'm getting kinda tired... and woozy..." but same thing really.

[Eladrin]

But my dwarf barbarian dies from using the rest shrine often too.

Your rage doesn't last eight hours, so it runs out before you get healed, which is why you end up dying. Heal up a little before using the shrine, so when your Con drops back down to normal your hitpoints won't drop below -9.

It's tough to get a good night's sleep while raging anyway.

[Conejo]

It's tough to get a good night's sleep while raging anyway.

it's tougher to sleep next to someone who is raging.
my wife sleep-punches me all the time.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Your rage doesn't last eight hours, so it runs out before you get healed, which is why you end up dying. Heal up a little before using the shrine, so when your Con drops back down to normal your hitpoints won't drop below -9.

It's tough to get a good night's sleep while raging anyway.

Hmmm... just a side thought... I wonder how many Barbs will die when they use the new mod 5 "end rage" feature without paying enough attention to their health bar.

[The_Old_Sage]

True. That brings up some interesting points about role playing a warforged.

What does your warforged do while the rest of the party is sleeping?

Some things we are better off not knowing.

Seriously it is an issue. The premise of the benefit due to the health skill is based on these individuals tending to their wounded colleagues while resting. The same should apply to repair skill. My wizard with a high repair skill would be taking out his good old-fashioned Phillip's screwdriver and WD-40 and looking under the hood.

[Dwolf]

Using a rest shrine is conceptually the equivalent of resting for eight hours, which is why non-permanent effects go away when you use one. At the end of the eight hours, fleshies are healed by their good night's sleep, and warforged are partially repaired.

This is why I've always felt that the shrine mechanic should be changed to make it a party use thing with the leader activating it for the whole party. Yes, it makes it impossible to do things like "you shrine first and i'll buff you before i shrine" but that's the point.

It more realistically models the fact that you are resting a long time and time is passing.

It also allows for the introduction of a feat or an enhancement line that would allow an additional use of a given shrine in a quest - simulating that character's skill in scouting out safe zones or establishing a safe perimeter.

More importantly it would emphasize the group mechanic and reduce zerging - well - one could hope anyway.

[Yaga_Nub]

negative energy spells are necromancy, and positive energy spells are "conjuration (healing)".

there is an inherent difference to how these spells work, and WF have no protections against necromatic effects.

Care to explain the difference to make your point a little more understandable?

[Mad_Bombardier]

Your rage doesn't last eight hours, so it runs out before you get healed, which is why you end up dying. Heal up a little before using the shrine, so when your Con drops back down to normal your hitpoints won't drop below -9.

It's tough to get a good night's sleep while raging anyway.

Haha! Drink a pot you silly Barbs. I suppose you're just roleplaying your INT and WIS dumpstats.

Seriously, if you have +50 HP while raging and are less than 50 HP when you hit the shrine, why wouldn't you heal up a little first? You aren't going to get full HP back from the shrine anyway (looking at about 180 max gain with a fully specced Heal skill), so you'll have to top off afterwards anyway. Drink a pot or 2 beforehand to make sure you don't die when Rage wears off. You'd do it if there was no shrine, so do it when there is one, too.

[Laith]

Care to explain the difference to make your point a little more understandable?

sure.

conjuration deals primarily in creation and summoning magic. now, it doesn't really get into HOW it can heal creatures, but by eliminating other schools, you can guess.
for example healing is NOT:
transmutation (alteration of matter that is present,
evocation (creation of/thru forces), or
necromancy (manipulation of life/death force)

...all of which COULD be likely candidates. So, what ARE you creating or summoning? Spell descriptions say you are channeling "positive energy" into the target.

"Positive energy" could arguibly be the domain of an evocation spell, but apparently they wanted to say that controlling such a force is beyond normal "man" and they instead must "summon" it. From a god. You could easily say that WF aren't really natural (for many reasons), and have a disconnect from positive energy.

(insert all the promethian applications/romantic aspects to the creation of warforged & man creating life without god here)

In any case though, to repair a wound, you must repair the whole wound. Life based magic could be considered unable to repair the metal/other parts contained in a WF.

~~~~~

necromancy though, destroys living creatures/matter. Period. If you have a life force, negative energy snuffs it out.

To damage a creature you don't need access to every part of the creature: just enough of a viable target to strike. A warforged's living wood parts provide the weakness... the spell doesn't HAVE to hurt the metal/other parts to kill the character.

[DrAwkward]

sure.

... this is more understandable?

More complete an answer, to be sure.
More understandable is more like...

Put a band-aid on a cut.
Put a band-aid on a broken toaster. <-- less effective

Take a hammer to a toaster.
Take a hammer to a person. <-- not less effective.

And a corralary:

Put bread in a toaster. You get toast!
Put bread in a person. You get ****

[Laith]

... this is more understandable?

haha, well he wanted me to "explain the difference" as well as be "understandable"

my first post said that they were different schools of magic, thus they effect WF differently. I suppose in creating a response, I got a little... into it.

response should have been:
Some parts of a WF are not living, thus not a viable target for Healing magic. These parts can get damaged too.
Enough of a WF is living matter to provide a viable target for negative energy damage. You don't need to completely obliterate a target to kill it... though it adds to the satisfaction. Negative energy spells presumably "ignore" the non-living parts and focus on the living wood.

thank you for augmenting my response by granting his other request though.

[Saranae]

Your rage doesn't last eight hours, so it runs out before you get healed, which is why you end up dying. Heal up a little before using the shrine, so when your Con drops back down to normal your hitpoints won't drop below -9.

It's tough to get a good night's sleep while raging anyway.

If using a rest shrine is like resting for 8 hours, why is it resting removes all temporary positive effects, but not negative ones? If I rest with Bane or Crushing Despair, it stays around, but all my buffs go away.

[DarkerOne]

If using a rest shrine is like resting for 8 hours, why is it resting removes all temporary positive effects, but not negative ones? If I rest with Bane or Crushing Despair, it stays around, but all my buffs go away.

Yep... this is a good question. I've always wondered about this one myself

The permanent stuff (curse, blind, etc) obviously won't go away, but anything with a timer should auto-expire when 'shrining'.

[Mad_Bombardier]

If using a rest shrine is like resting for 8 hours, why is it resting removes all temporary positive effects, but not negative ones? If I rest with Bane or Crushing Despair, it stays around, but all my buffs go away.

Wouldn't it be nice if shrines just took -8 minutes from all your timers instead of debuffing? (assuming that 1 realtime minute = 1 gametime hour for buffs.) It could apply equally to buffs and debuffs.

[Eladrin]

If using a rest shrine is like resting for 8 hours, why is it resting removes all temporary positive effects, but not negative ones? If I rest with Bane or Crushing Despair, it stays around, but all my buffs go away.

Both Bane and Crushing Despair should indeed be removed on rest, as of a pass we made on effects as part of 4.2.

Edit:
Aha! Found it!

Potentially long-lasting debuff spells like crushing despair, bane, doom, and ray of enfeeblement have been changed so that they are removed by resting at a rest shrine.

[Shade]

Both Bane and Crushing Despair should indeed be removed on rest, as of a pass we made on effects as part of 4.2.

Edit:
Aha! Found it!

Heh sometimes its hard to remember to drink potions before you shrine when you still have 100 hitpoints left.. But fine I don't mind dying at rest shrines anyways, all of them have a rez shrine nearby.. Now if u put a rest one withotu a rez nearby... thatd be interesting. And the death penalty doesnt matter to high levels so not a big deal..
But..

How about madstone rage? It lasts 2 minuits.. Yet 8 horus later and some rest, and its still active.

Infact "quick travel" to dungeons which could theorectically take days to perform do not remove madstone rage either..

Would be nice if it was.