The problem with raids, clerics, and loot

[Uska]

I agree with you on clerics and raids but those items are wack way to much power on them.

[Cowdenicus]

gauntlets of eternity are arguably better than that ring i posted, that you edited and those are ML 13 raid loot.

[Uska]

Yeah I know but I really didn't know what to do about them. Maybe drop the +6 INT. Maybe turn the true seeing into a clicky as well.

Yeah that is what I was thinking true seeing clickie still pretty powerful though with the search and spot with +6int would kill for that alone

[Vinos]

gauntlets of eternity are arguably better than that ring i posted, that you edited and those are ML 13 raid loot.

respectfully disagree. Superior devotion 8 is MUCH more powerful then devotion 6

[The_Cataclysm]

We should just leave the actual item creation and balancing to devs. They can screw it up well enough on their own without our input.

[Dragonhyde]

what about bards? i once bought my bard to a dragon raid, and the raid doesnt even really have items for a bard

does any raids have a decent item for a bard, im not talking like the +6 cha helm in titan, but a item that would actully make a bard go..i want that!

there isnt even or if any any bows in raids

seems like most raid items are based off the hack and slash melee idea

Actually my bards have been living in Zawabis until they finish getting all from their wish list. For me the necklace there is a mainstay with spellpen, wiz3 and a chance to get mana back. Out of all the raids dq seems to have more items that are good for bards and clerics.
But that's just my thoughts.

[Vinos]

We should just leave the actual item creation and balancing to devs. They can screw it up well enough on their own without our input.

True enough. But it's fun to make up items.

[The_Cataclysm]

True enough. But it's fun to make up items.

But I suck at doing it so it's no fun for me.

If I can't have fun no one can.

[Vinos]

But I suck at doing it so it's no fun for me.

If I can't have fun no one can.

Maybe this item could help

Cataclysm's Box of Muse
Trinket
Good Idea 2/week

[Shade]

I know lots of clerics that raid way more then I do. And they want more raid items than my melee does!

Reason is incredibly simple: Clerics can melee! Who would of thought? Suddenly there loot wants go from caster gear, to caster and melee gear..

Now sure your cleric cant melee, but you were generaizing the class.

No idea what your problem with raid loot is, but to me it seems there are great items to be had in every raid, expecially for a cleric.

VoN6 you mentioned has 2 incredible item any cleric would want:
helm of the mroarnon and kundarak boots. Melee clerics would want the SoS and belt also, for 4 great items. Googles are also useful, blind ward + spot in 1 slot, spot will be more important then ever in mod5.

Also most of your raid item ideas are overpowered. That and slapping pure good on every item is a bad idea. Raid items shouldn't have alignment restrictions. None do except the chaosblade, which make sense because of its name.

[Hvymetal]

I agree there should be more variety to the raid loot that is usefull to more people, but let's not go crazy on the power of the stuff and please no class restricted items, would be better to see items that are better for a larger variety of classes/builds rather than restricting choices even more IMO.

[Averroes]

4. Since many raids are healing heavy, clerics are expected to be stocked with wands and scrolls, and use them...yet very few people ever give cash to a cleric who just blew plat keeping them alive so they can loot that uber melee item.

I dunno...

There are certainly more raid items for clerics than there are for arcanes, ranged characters, or finesse characters. And really, primary casters aren't anywhere near as loot-dependant in this game as fighter-types -- the difference between a geared out cleric and one with nothing especially rare isn't nearly like the difference between a fighter will a half dozen raid items and one with none.


And when my guild got to the point where most or all of the clerics had everything they needed, we started running raids without clerics.

Von5, as has been mentioned, doesn't require clerics. A ranger and a pally can duo it, even. Any two decent damage dealers can take Velah down on normal before she kills them both, even with zero healing.

Demon queen doesn't require clerics. Or really even healing. Just a stack of potions. My barb has done it with only potion healing. Multiple times. So has my wizard, for that matter. Solo.

Titan also doesn't require clerics, although it's nice to have someone who can rez during the twilight forge to speed things along.


Clerics are nice for reaver though. But there's infinite mana in there, so no one should ever use wands or scrolls. Just remember to turn off maximize when you lose the charge...


And don't knock the hammer of life. I love that item. I wish I had 3 or 4 of 'em, even. Nothing says self-sufficiency like a barb who can remove his own negative levels.

[Morgoth_the_Enemy]

what about bards? i once bought my bard to a dragon raid, and the raid doesnt even really have items for a bard

does any raids have a decent item for a bard, im not talking like the +6 cha helm in titan, but a item that would actully make a bard go..i want that!

there isnt even or if any any bows in raids

seems like most raid items are based off the hack and slash melee idea

Delving Suit - Dragon
Seven Fingered Gloves - Titan
Skull Fetish Mask - Titan
Torc of Prince Raiyum de II - DQ
Staff of Arcane Power - DQ
Head of Good Fortune - Reaver
Treason - Reaver
Ring of Lies - Reaver

And that's without delving into the items that would help anybody, like the Titan belt or the Seal of the Earth.

[popltree2]

Maybe this item could help

Cataclysm's Box of Muse
Trinket
Good Idea 2/week

Yes but will it stack with his already worn,

Treks' Less than likely Brigandine
-15 spot
-10 listen
15% chance that heal spells will crit and kill you instead.

you know I know a couple people who wear this item.. Hmmmm.. LOL

[jaitee]

Delving Suit - Dragon
Seven Fingered Gloves - Titan
Skull Fetish Mask - Titan
Torc of Prince Raiyum de II - DQ
Staff of Arcane Power - DQ
Head of Good Fortune - Reaver
Treason - Reaver
Ring of Lies - Reaver

And that's without delving into the items that would help anybody, like the Titan belt or the Seal of the Earth.

those items can help a bard out, but it doesnt make me go wow, i really want it, +6 cha items are soo easy to come by, recalling for sps, buffed 40 UMD is already high enough, ring of lies can easy be replace with loot, good head of forutune is decent though

[Morgoth_the_Enemy]

those items can help a bard out, but it doesnt make me go wow, i really want it, +6 cha items are soo easy to come by, recalling for sps, buffed 40 UMD is already high enough, ring of lies can easy be replace with loot, good head of forutune is decent though

Which item does make you go wow then? It's not like you can't use the sword of shadows with the right bard build, and aside from that there is nothing absurdly incredible out there. The Delving suit, torc, and gloves are all top tier items, as good as, if not better than any other items in the game with the possible exception of the SoS.

[Riggs]

Actually my bards have been living in Zawabis until they finish getting all from their wish list. For me the necklace there is a mainstay with spellpen, wiz3 and a chance to get mana back. Out of all the raids dq seems to have more items that are good for bards and clerics.
But that's just my thoughts.

Demon queen is the only raid my cleric actually wants to run. The queen is the only raid that has items that are mostly useful to most classes.

[Riggs]

I know lots of clerics that raid way more then I do. And they want more raid items than my melee does!

Reason is incredibly simple: Clerics can melee! Who would of thought? Suddenly there loot wants go from caster gear, to caster and melee gear..

Now sure your cleric cant melee, but you were generaizing the class.

No idea what your problem with raid loot is, but to me it seems there are great items to be had in every raid, expecially for a cleric.

VoN6 you mentioned has 2 incredible item any cleric would want:
helm of the mroarnon and kundarak boots. Melee clerics would want the SoS and belt also, for 4 great items. Googles are also useful, blind ward + spot in 1 slot, spot will be more important then ever in mod5.

Also most of your raid item ideas are overpowered. That and slapping pure good on every item is a bad idea. Raid items shouldn't have alignment restrictions. None do except the chaosblade, which make sense because of its name.

True any cleric who makes a melee build can roll on and enjoy melee items also. But a sword of shadows doesnt make a cleric's spells any better.

The challenge isnt to see how many characters you can get to use the SoS, but what OTHER items would be useful if your not a power attacking melee.

[Jaywade]

[QUOTE=Riggs;1303210]
Von 6 is especially perniscious, as it requires 2 clerics, yet there is pretty much nothing a cleric would want from that raid.



QUOTE]

I disagree with just about all that you said....and I've done the dragon a couple times w/ no clerics in the party (we use pallys or rangers w/ wiz 6 items to get past the doors).......

[Riggs]

Almost everyone says the list in the OP is way overpowered.

Everything?

So boots thet make you jump and run fast are too powerful for a level 14 character?

A ring that adds to 3 skills and Dex is overpowered?

Yeah some of the weapons have multiple effects on them. But those effects only mean you can use a weapon in multiple situations, rather than carrying 15 weapons around. Maybe I got a little carried away with Transmuting, but for an undead weapon...its a logical enhancement to not have to have 2 different weapons for blunt and slash.

But any slaying weapon (melee slaying is already only a chance on a hit, not like arrows which causes a save on every single hit), is trumped by the vorpal or banishing, and undead slaying is trumped by disruption. Who cares if you have this great sword that does good damage and has a chance to kill undead - when you can just use a disruptor, do no damage, but kill any undead in a few hits or whenever it rolls a 1 on a save. Who cares about slaying if you have a vorpal...roll a 20 - dead monster. outsider slaying? A banishing rapier is better - but outsider and aberration slaying is completely appropriate in Eberron where orc druids have been battling outsiders and aberrations for 10s of thousands of years - there should be a LOT more items floating around good against those types....

The cleric staff that casts spells is much like the arcane staff from the queen (which also gives a +2 good luck bonus btw), the only difference is that most are higher level and useful to a cleric in saving mana. There is nothing in that list that a cleric cannot already cast (maybe I should make the min requirement level 13 cleric...).

And not a single weapon in my list can outdamage a SoS. They give a good damage useful weapon, in most cases adding the proficiency for non-melee classes, so that someone OTHER than a power attacking melee can be excited about a weapon from a raid. (And yeah more bard items and a few bows would be really good.)

Many have said that the SoS is overpowered. Fine. Either make everything else in raids as good as the weapon that is in the level 10 raid (Cloudburst is not even close at level 14), or nurf SoS so it crits like a regular greatsword. 2x crit on a 18-20, +5 adamantine - thats about in line with alll the other raid weapons out there.

Noooooo! Dont nurf my SoS! Either you support other items being as powerful to balance the list, or you are hypocritical and want a uber item for yourself, and dont care about what any other class has. The only fair option is to nurf SoS, INCLUDING every one existing in the game now, or make other items way better than they are now. Anything is unblanaced, and therefore unfair to anyone but power attacking melees.

So what exactly is overpowered? Saying the entire list is overpowered is not credible, since most of them are similar to raid items in play now - except being useful to more players. The weapons have lots of enhancements sure - but not a single one can out-DPS a SoS, so how is that overpowered? Some can be toned down sure. Take away one of the 4 enhancements, and most are still good items. But raid items should still be better than randomly generated items, and most people dont use most raid items because they are worse than randomly generated items curently.

Most raids now people argue over who gets to take the crummy items just so they can vendor them. Oout of my last 3 non-queen raids not a single one dropped anything people actually wanted to roll on, except maybe the Battle Coin "well I guess I will roll if no one wants it".

Raid loot is currently 75% jack, and it really should change significantly, and while its changing make other classes want to raid. The queen is a good example of a decent list of items that almost anyone would want, or at least want a few items from it - which is not the case for the other raids. (Ditch the armors....or make the scale actually useful to someone who uses light armor...and the reaver has maybe one item per class that people would want, and after you get that item really its only about tomes)

I know Turbine listens to people, I just hope they dont look at a few people who post "No raid items are great as they are now, I like my overpowered SoS and leave the rest who cares" kind of posts.