A Balanced Human Rogue (A build by request)

[sigtrent]

From Sigtrent's Build Request Thread

Build Name: Classic Rogue
Author: Sigfried Trent
Requester: WarrenB
Last Updated: 07/21/10

Key Words [Rogue, Two Weapon Fighting, Assassin]

Objectives
The request was for a pure 32pt Rogue in the classic style of a classic rogue, either human or drow with evasion and two weapon fighting, good dex, and which does traps well. The original was a well balanced character and I sought to keep that approach but bring it up to date with the new de-facto rogue build choices and style.

Design
The first thing that has changed a bit is moving from a full dex finesse build to a more modest dex and a strength based combat profile. The down side is you get a lower save on traps and the up side is a beefier damage bonus in combat and the freedom to use a much wider range of weapons. To counter any reflex issues, human versatility provides a big save boost that lasts long enough to traverse a typical trap. The weapon selection moves me from piercing to slashing as the preferred weapon type.

The higher strength is also making power attack workable which further ups our damage potential and when all is said and done, when sneak attacking, this character will devastate enemies vulnerable to sneak attack damage.

But this is a well rounded build so stats are fairly well spread out to provide decent hit points and very strong skills. The mountain of skill points on a pure human rogue gets you all the extras including deep stealth and awesome acrobatics, great UMD as well as top range trapping skills. Human versatility and two dipps on skill mastery further cement its prowess and skill focus UMD means this fellow can cast just about any scroll they please at upper levels.

None of the defenses on the build are especially impressive but none are flat out terrible either. A good assassin knows when to retreat into the shadows and when to step out and strike. To that ends I plugged in the full speedy stealth line so if you are looking for a great stealth build this one works brilliantly.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 272
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 16
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             15                    22
Dexterity            15                    18
Constitution         14                    18
Intelligence         14                    16
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             12                    14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    19
Bluff                 1                    10
Concentration         2                     6
Diplomacy             1                    27
Disable Device        6                    29
Haggle                5                    27
Heal                 -1                     2
Hide                  6                    37
Intimidate            1                     4
Jump                  6                    31
Listen               -1                     2
Move Silently         6                    37
Open Lock             6                    29
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                     5
Search                6                    29
Spot                  3                    25
Swim                  2                     8
Tumble                6                    29
Use Magic Device      5                    30

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I


Level 8 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Human Versatility III


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV


Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking IV


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Deadly Shadows

Play
The only thing you should avoid is tanking. Solo play is possible but something of a struggle at some levels. Without sneak attack you are only a average to poor combatant. With it you are a death machine. Keep well geared out and you should handle traps like kindergarten.

Variations
The only tome required here is dex, but all of them are helpfull. You need the dex by level 9 but that should not be hard to manage either by chucking some TP for it or buyng one. Its well worth the extra build points you save. 28pts are doable but you have to specialize a bit more, cutting back on charisma and possibly int to make it work.

[WarrenB]

From Sigtrent's Build Request Thread

BALANCED ROGUE a Neutral Good - Human – Rogue 14
Requested By: WarrenB
Presented By: Sigfried Trent

The request was for a 32pt pure rogue build, human(preferred) or drow who uses TWF, has evasion, UMD, high Dex and does traps well. Personally I think Drow make superior rogues in many ways, but humans are no slouch. Besides, it’s more interesting to go human and the requester was close to unlocking 32pt characters, so why not make one. The only thing I personaly don't like about this build is it doesn't really have a gimick, just a good solid well rounded rogue.

Starting Statistics (32pts)
STR 12 – DEX 16 – CON 12 – INT 14 – WIS 10 – CHA 14

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Skill Focus UMD, Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus Search, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical Puncturing

Skills: Open Locks 17, Disable Device 17, Search 17, Spot 17, Hide 7, Move Silently 17, Diplomacy 17, Bluff 17, Jump 16, Balance 17, UMD 17, Tumble 1

Enhancements: Skill Boost 2, Human Versatility 4, Human Adaptability Dex, Fire Trap Lore 1, Way of the Mechanic 1, Disable Device 2, Open Lock 2, Rogue Search 2, Rogue Spot 2, Rogue Dex 3, Improved Trap Sense 1, Sneak Attack Accuracy 1, Sneak Attack Training 3

Leveling Guide

1st Level: Rogue
Two Weapon Fighting, Skill Focus UMD : Open Locks 4, Disable Device 4, Search 4, Spot 4, Hide 4, Move Silently 4, Diplomacy 4, Bluff 4, Jump 3, Balance 4, UMD 4, Tumble 1

2nd Level: Rogue
Open Locks 1, Disable Device 1, Search 1, Spot 1, Hide 1, Move Silently 1, Diplomacy 1, Bluff 1, Jump 1, Balance 1, UMD 1 (pattern continues)

3rd Level: Rogue
Weapon Finesse

4th Level: Rogue
Dex +1

5th Level: Rogue

6th Level: Rogue
Skill Focus Search

7th Level: Rogue

8th Level: Rogue
Dex +1

9th Level: Rogue
Improved Two Weapon Fighting

10th Level: Rogue

11th Level: Rogue

12th Level: Rogue
Dex +1 : Improved Critical Piercing

13th Level: Rogue

14th Level: Rogue

Commentary
This is a fairly generalist looking rogue. No great strengths, no great weaknesses. This character has many skills and should be fun for jumping and sneaking around in addition to all the handy rogue skills. UMD is not quite up there with a bard, but it should get you all kinds of scroll use which definitely adds a lot to the characters abilities, and is what should make this character fun to play. You may raise an eyebrow at taking Rogue Skill Boost and Human Versatility. Well, RSB is needed for way of the mechanic, and any way you slice it, that’s a good value enhancement for rogue skills. Human Versatility is slated to get extra features letting you boost attack, speed etc.. so I wanted to capitalize on it. Besides you end up with 5 +3 boosts and 5 +5 boosts which could be handy in a long quest.

Number Crunching
Final Statistics (Assuming +1 tomes and +6 items as desired)
STR 18 – DEX 28 – CON 18 – INT 20 – WIS 16 – CHA 20

Attack Value (Wielding +5 Rapier / +5 Short Sword): BAB 10, Dex 9, Weapon 5, Two Weapon Fighting -2, Greater Heroism 4: (26)
+26/26/31/36 1d6 + 9 (15-20 X2) + 7d6 + 6 (sneak)
+26/31 1d6 + 9 (17-20 X2) + 7d6 + 6(sneak)

Armor Class (Kunderak Delving Suit): Dex 6, Armor 10, Deflection 4, Barkskin Potion 3 = 33 (better with shield and Improved Uncanny Dodge etc..)

Hit Points: About 180

Fort Save: Poor (10+)
Reflex Save: Excellent (20+)
Will Save: Poor (10+)

Combat Commentary
Combat with this character is all about getting sneak attack. I’d recommend a main hand deception rapier with a high attack bonus, and an off hand short sword with a high end sneak attack bonus. This would significantly up the damage as presented in the Attack Value block. Divine Might clickies might be the way to go for serious fights as it ups your attack and you don’t need to wear a Strength item. Bluff and Diplomacy are “free” actions so set them up for easy spamming during fights when you pull agro on your intended target. Defenses here aren’t great but they aren’t terrivle either. Using a shield you can pick up a pretty decent AC. Saves are workable if not amazing, better than less generalized rogues buy a little bit.

Rogue Skills (Boosted, GH, Top notch gear): Disable Device 55, Open Lock 58, Search 48, Spot 45, UMD ~34

Casting Commentary
Search can be hard to get up there. You won’t be hitting that Cabal chest but you should be able to cope with most other challenges. Disable and Open lock are pretty top notch and UMD is strong enough for raise dead and heal with few if any failures.

Hi Sig

Thanks for the build....looks real solid as you said. I do prefer the old style single class builds. Will have a good look at it over the next 4 weeks when I'm on the ships & see what needs revising / restructuring with your help.

Look like this will be a fun toon to play as is tho. What was the reasoning behind choosing "Human Versatility" please. The duration of each click is so short lived, imho they gimped it when they made it a selectable instead of an always on.

Cheers
Warren

[Tavok]

Very solid. Nice job sig.

[Roguewiz]

Attack Value (Wielding +5 Rapier / +5 Short Sword): BAB 10, Dex 9, Weapon 5, Two Weapon Fighting -2, Greater Heroism 4: (26)
+26/26/31/36 1d6 + 9 (15-20 X2) + 7d6 + 6 (sneak)
+26/31 1d6 + 9 (17-20 X2) + 7d6 + 6(sneak

Your damage calculation is a little off, at least as far as your off-hand goes. While dual-wielding, you only get half your strength mod to damage for the off-hand. So, it would be +7, not +9.

Solid build otherwise. +55 DD will hit all but Cabal Elite and one other trap on elite (can't remember name). Everything else looks fine.

[binnsr]

Solid build otherwise. +55 DD will hit all but Cabal Elite and one other trap on elite (can't remember name). Everything else looks fine.

It's either A Cry for Help or Foundation of Discord - pretty sure it's Cry though.

edit: nice build Sig -- one question though - why not take Skill Focus: Search at lvl1 and TWF at lvl6? Until about that time, your negatives outweigh the benefits for TWF, imho.

[sigtrent]

Look like this will be a fun toon to play as is tho. What was the reasoning behind choosing "Human Versatility" please. The duration of each click is so short lived, imho they gimped it when they made it a selectable instead of an always on.

Partly it was an attempt to give the build disable/lock/search skills that were as high as possible. Action boost is a pretty big chunk of that and when using it for skills, or for UMD to activate a scroll, the duration isn't too much of an issue. Most rogues have Rogue skill boost, but I figured human boost is just a bit better because with mod 5 you will get attac, ac, save etc... boosts as well which wouldn't normaly be all that great, but could come in handy. My rogue only has skill boost 2 but I do use it for the extra 3pts on occasion and for a few traps it has meant the difference between finding it and not.

Most of the time you wouldn't need action boost, but there are those few prestige traps and chests and since you were a pure rogue I though I would try to get you as close to disarming those as I could without spending too many action points on it. It would be impossible to spec out another +5 to any of your skills for the 10 points it costs so it seems like a pretty good way to spend them.

Fortunately action poits can be pretty much freely changed so you could change out HV if you didn't like it for anything else you like, either fixed skill bonuses, another human addaptability or a bit more combat prowess. I'm a big beliver in re-speccing your enhancements every couple of levels to best support what you are doing at that level. Especialy with the stat bonuses, sometimes you need them, sometimes you don't depending on odd or even stat breaks.

[sigtrent]

Your damage calculation is a little off, at least as far as your off-hand goes. While dual-wielding, you only get half your strength mod to damage for the off-hand. So, it would be +7, not +9.

Solid build otherwise. +55 DD will hit all but Cabal Elite and one other trap on elite (can't remember name). Everything else looks fine.

Thanks for catching that, got it fixed. It's hard to get those "prestige" traps unless you are drow or put all your feats and enhancements into meeting the search/disarm for it.

[sigtrent]

edit: nice build Sig -- one question though - why not take Skill Focus: Search at lvl1 and TWF at lvl6? Until about that time, your negatives outweigh the benefits for TWF, imho.

Statisticly the attack chance for TWF is almost always worth while, although whether it is worht the loss of using a shield is a valid argument. The extra chance to land a blow is worth the -2 on your main attack unless your damage is incredibly low with the extra attack, or your main hand attack is incredibly strong.

But the main thing is just that he requested a TWF build so I like to make the build do what it does as early as possible. I don't especialy like skill focus Search (only because it isn't very "exciting") so that was the last feat I picked. Usualy with feats I decide the ones I want most, figure out what levels I can take them, and then fill in any "extra slots" that remain. I think skill focus search was the last one I added.

[spetridis]

I've found your comments on the Rogue boards very valuable, Sigtrent (as well as Sable's guide). I haven't played since before Enhancement's were over-hauled and have a few questions: would this build be viable with a 28pt human? Or should I use my paladin to get 400 favour and build one with a drow (I'm close-ish). If the drow is my best bet, how should enhancements for a pure drow rogue be distributed?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Ardanroth]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.85
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 16 True Neutral Drow Male
(16 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 116
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 5
Reflex: 15
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength             12                    12
Dexterity            16                    20
Constitution         10                    10
Intelligence         16                    17
Wisdom               12                    12
Charisma             14                    14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance               3                    25
Bluff                 6                    24
Concentration         0                     1
Diplomacy             6                    22
Disable Device        7                    23
Haggle                2                     3
Heal                  1                     2
Hide                  7                    29
Intimidate            2                     3
Jump                  5                     6
Listen                5                    13
Move Silently         7                    30
Open Lock             7                    24
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                3                     4
Search                3                    25
Spot                  4                    23
Swim                  5                     6
Tumble                4                     9
Use Magic Device      6                    22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Slicing Blow
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I

Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I

Level 4 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II

Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Way of the Assassin I

Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber II

Level 8 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III

Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber III

Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III

Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber IV

Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV

Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently III

Please demolish it and advise what i should do correctly

dammit this was meant to be a thread of its own - apologies

[binnsr]

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Slicing Blow

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery

Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind

Slicing Blow isn't worth a feat in my opinion .. 1d4 extra damage is kinda 'meh' (and although you get more iterations of that 1d4 the higher level you get, not a lot of mobs are going to be around long enough for it to add up)

Oversize TWF is also a marginal choice because the only finessable weapon that qualifies is the Rapier - and the only difference between a rapier and a short sword is the crit range .. Skill Focus: UMD would be my recommendation for a suitable replacement -- there are times when your ability to use a scroll or wand can be the difference between the party recovering and everyone rezzing out of the dungeon. Plus, that +3 gives you a leg up early on for using all that race restricted gear as you're leveling up - with this feat, you're at +9UMD at lvl1 (add a +1 tome and +1 item and you're using RR equipment on the docks).

My opinion:
1: SF: UMD
3: Finesse
6: TWF
9: Improved TWF
12: Improved Crit: Piercing
15: Greater TWF

[krud]

good solid build. I would add that by level 16 you could probably spec out SF:search for something else. If you put some AP in search enhancement as soon as you can, and always have the best search item you can equip, it may not even be necessary to begin with. It will really only will be an issue when running elite quests above your level. taking both ITWF in its place and GTWF later on seems like a good alternative.
For a human rogue, HV is definitely better than the rogue boosts. You get a few other good boosts out of it in addition to the skill boost. I wouldn't even bother with the rogue enhancement, it's on the same timer as HV anyway - they don't stack.

search @ lvl16:
base 19
20int 5
item 15
GH 4
HV4 5
enh 2
total 50

[Soldarm]

Why take both Bluff and Diplomancy..I thought that Diplomancy would encompass Bluff due to its multiple target effect?

[Varr]

I find on my rogue I use the 5 rouge boosts for traps mostly and end up tapping the 5 human boosts for res/heal scrolls and that one trap you want another +5 save for. The 40 umd heal scrolls though are the big one and I find the 10 +5 boosts spread out much better than just having 5.

[sigtrent]

Why take both Bluff and Diplomancy..I thought that Diplomancy would encompass Bluff due to its multiple target effect?

Bluff works on single targets when you have agro from them. I'm not sure you can really diplomacy when ehtere is nothing else for the monsters to agro on. Also it gives you a second option if the first fails.

But mostly it is becaue the build has an enormous number of skill poins to spend.

[CSFurious]

with improved feint

as currently implemented, it is pretty worthless

diplomacy, hide & move silently, & subtle backstabber will keep you alive better

[SanePsycho]

Bluff works on single targets when you have agro from them. I'm not sure you can really diplomacy when ehtere is nothing else for the monsters to agro on. Also it gives you a second option if the first fails.

Diplomacy and Bluff share a cooldown timer, so if you use one, the other is also unavailable for a short time. I still see having both as valuable (although how valuable is up to you), for use in different situations. If I have a lot of aggro, and I use diplomacy, chances are my healer might be the one who ends up with all the hate, and I certainly don't want that.

[Dark_Necromancer]

So I'm looking at the original guide and the only problem I have with it is that there's no skill progression. I'm overly slavish to builds, so this is naturally a problem for me. However, when I look down at the post below the original one, I see a skill progression, I'm thinking Great! He put a progression in this bit. But when I look at the feats and the starting stats of the two builds I see that there different!! Which one should I follow?! Which is the better one for today's updates?! Which one should I do? Some help promptly would be much appreciated.

[Jaid314]

So I'm looking at the original guide and the only problem I have with it is that there's no skill progression. I'm overly slavish to builds, so this is naturally a problem for me. However, when I look down at the post below the original one, I see a skill progression, I'm thinking Great! He put a progression in this bit. But when I look at the feats and the starting stats of the two builds I see that there different!! Which one should I follow?! Which is the better one for today's updates?! Which one should I do? Some help promptly would be much appreciated.

the build is from 2007. the last post (before yours) in this thread is 2008. i suspect it isn't entirely up to date... i mean, granted, the game may not have completely changed. but i would ask the author if maybe he has a more up-to-date build.

[Grecan]

<snip> Which one should I follow?! Which is the better one for today's updates?! Which one should I do? Some help promptly would be much appreciated.

the build is from 2007. the last post (before yours) in this thread is 2008. i suspect it isn't entirely up to date... i mean, granted, the game may not have completely changed. but i would ask the author if maybe he has a more up-to-date build.

The first post (op) was last edited by sigtrent; 08-18-2010 at 11:09 PM.

He also says: "The original was a well balanced character and I sought to keep that approach but bring it up to date with the new de-facto rogue build choices and style."


+rep to him for keeping his builds up-to-date