Bard's Fascinate... overpowered?!?!

[Spookydodger]

Here is why Fascinate is a much more powerful ability in this game than in PnP:

You can do it in battle. In PnP, once battle starts, or anyone even makes a threatening move, poof, fascinate is no more.

Oh, and you need to keep playing.

If fascinate did need any tweak, I would say make it so that the bard toggles it on and off. As long as they play, and the mob is undamaged, viva la song.

Though as many have said, the required proximity and limited number of songs makes this a difficult prospect. If you want a useless ability, try the Suggestion ability. It lasts for so little time, and if the mob gets whacked at all while fascinated, your suggestion is down the drain.

[Deusxmachina]

Bards can break the game.

The amusing part of Fascinate, the most powerful thing in the entire game, is that it rarely has a chance to be used.

[Zenako]

one type of circumstance can let bards shine a bit. Try running near level quests with only 2 or 3 characters. THEN, you get a chance to use those songs well. The one tank in your party probably is more than happy to only wake up one mob at a time, instead of all 8 at once. I often run two man quests with my Bro-in-law, My bard, his Dwarf Tank.

[Freeman]

The funny part is that many bards have been asking for them to add a save to Fascinate for a long time. Fascinate would be overpowered if more groups took full advantage of it. Unfortunately, I've had far too many occasions where it was only used to give a group time to rez, heal, and generally recover from a near-wipe. If you have a party that works well enough together to actually take advantage of Fascinate, then you should consider yourself a very lucky player. At that point, you're going to defeat any enemy and breeze through any quest, regardless of whether a bard is with you or not.

[Klattuu]

Anyone else remember the days when there was thread after thread of people complaining how the Bard was practially useless and Fascinate was one the most useless skills in the game?

Amazing how a little fine-tuning and a few levels can do to change an additude.

[Dragonhyde]

Fascinat vs spells is all in the fact that you cannot fascinate across a room and you can hear a bard coming. I guess they could always bring the silence spell into the game but wait that would affect mages too.
Fascinate is a nice class ability but is not anymore overpowered than say maximize/empower added to damage spells. But when they do start doing dcs on fascinate then it needs to work better than that silly freedom song which only seems to use bard level.

[jaitee]

this post is just sad, really...you think a bard is superior to a caster?

some people dont even think my bard is a caster, and i have 2 bards!!

my sorc can clear quests in matter of seconds, zerg zerg zerg, my bard? he can stand around and play some tunes, hoping to not die, better yet, if i even get a chance to fasinate

when i run pop, you know who is on ball duty? and lever duty? my bard!!!

really i have all types of casters, and by far, the bard is the weakest, most undesirable class any groups wants

i know how to play my bards, but with the playstyle of today, their is no need for a bard, other then to play your tunes, and shut up for the rest of the quest

[wundernewb]

Really? You've seen groups play smartly when there's a bard in the party?
I need to move to your server then because I NEVER get the chance to fascinate ANYTHING unless I race ahead of the group (which I'm not going to do just to use one ability of my bard).

Maybe you don't need to change servers, but play with better listeners/non speed gamers. Any party I've been in, if the bard says they are going to fascinate, everybody waits, and then takes the mobs down one at a time. (after the bard has retreated)

Sometimes there are accidents, (usually an extra mob or two woken up early by a glancing blow from a 2-hander) but generally, bard's fascinate is respected. Here on Argo, anyway

[Prinstoni]

They have enough nerfing to do without us giving them more ideas on how to nerf us. It already seems as though the have an us vs them mentality with their "NEW!:" Changes...Let's not give them any more targets shall we?

Indeed. STOP NERFING/CHANGING CONTENT AND GIVE US SOME NEW CONTENT!!!!

1 week without playing now, and the last time I logged in I played 1 Titan raid. Before that I had another 1 week vacation. I am begining to think that my xbox is going to get worn out before I start playing DDO again.

STOP CHANGING CONTENT AND BRING US SOME NEW STUFF!!!

I am a proud supporter of the NON-NERF UNION!

[Mizyrlou]

Fascinate is not overpowered by any stretch.

I can count on one hand and still have fingers left over on the times my bard was able to fascinate and the mob wasn't snapped out of it be someone tearing into them with greatsword swinging.

It doesn't bother me to the degree it bothers other bards since I'm used to similar when I run my cleric main.

[Zenako]

bards revenge, just start charming the mobs...then they can't be hurt by the zerging tanks....grrrrinnn

[Radsyn]

Pretty much sums it up

A few differences...

Bard fascinate DOES require fairly close proximity, meaning the bard needs to mingle with the intended fans. (now some haste, Displacement, GH, etc does make it easier). Also I believe I have been interrupted by failed Concentration or standing up status (been tripped) and not gotten off the intended effect. Unlike spells like Hypnotise which works at range, fascainte is a burst from the Bard with a "short range".

A skilled bard will have a bunch of songs available, BUT those same song slots are used for Spellsong, or Inspire Courage or Inspire Greatness, etc. As for going to needing a perfrom check, that would not be a huge obstacle for most bards keep it maxed anyway and have high boost items stashed away. It would also be interesting to see which save would apply? I suspect WILL and those are often the poorest saves for most mobs. I know my bard would have a net perform of about 40 off the top of my head with out even thinking about things like Rabbit gloves or extra feats. DC40 will saves...as mentioned, looking for 20s will be the name of the game.

[Ishturi]

God-like saves? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTT.

Step one: get the feats! Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus help! (I recommend: Necromancy)
Step two: get the Items! Get an Item that boosts the DC of a school. (I recommend: Necromancy)
Step three: get Enervation! This spell lowers the level AND the saves of creatures by 1d4. If a mob is saving too much, hit them with this.
Step four: Party! With Enervation, both Spell Focus feats, and the correct Items, you should be able to CC/PK/FoD most stuff out there (red mobs Excluded)

And don't tell me this doesn't work, I'm a level 14 Sorc. Spell Penetration feats/Enhancements/Items also help at higher level quests when mobs have SR.

[Hvymetal]

Why is it casters that are always complaining? You guys are just starting to come into your own yet you still find stuff to b*tch about. Sheeesh
Complain when bards are out there soloing raid bosses. Wait, you guys already are.....

[Freeman]

Why is it casters that are always complaining? You guys are just starting to come into your own yet you still find stuff to b*tch about. Sheeesh
Complain when bards are out there soloing raid bosses. Wait, you guys already are.....

Yep. Sorcs and wizards solo raid bosses. Bards try to use their charm, wit, and natural good looks to get the same result. In DDO, it is a little bit tougher than it would be in PnP, but I think Velah and the Demon Queen are starting to fall for me. Unfortunately, I think the Storm Reaver is now stalking me. He won't stop calling, leaving me PMs and text messages. I think I might have to get a restraining order. Which house handles that?

[Symar-FangofLloth]

House Denieth. Although House Kundarak could set up defenses at your residence.

[Shade]

I think the DC should be something like Perform/2 + cha mod.

So average 40 perform, = 20, and say 30 cha for +10, = DC 30. works on most ppl but pally can save vs it 95%.

Or maximum perform (over 70) = 35 + max cha (34) +12. 47 = almost no one will save, maybe a pally if he rolls a 19.

Just straight perform would be overpowered.

[Freeman]

I think the DC should be something like Perform/2 + cha mod.

So average 40 perform, = 20, and say 30 cha for +10, = DC 30. works on most ppl but pally can save vs it 95%.

Or maximum perform (over 70) = 35 + max cha (34) +12. 47 = almost no one will save, maybe a pally if he rolls a 19.

Just straight perform would be overpowered.

Since Charisma is already added into the Perform skill, it seems odd to half Perform, then add Charisma into it again. Also, you make the mistake many people make, and only consider end game. For a first level bard, the DC would probably be more along the lines of (4 Perform + 4 Charisma)/2 + 4 Charisma = 8 DC, which would be virtually useless. Even a first level spell will usually have a DC of at least 14 or 15, so the mobs would hardly ever fail. At 5th level, with a +5 Perform item and Heroism, it would likely be up to (13 Perform + 6 Charisma + 2 Heroism)/2 + 6 Charisma = DC 16. Since the spells would have minimum DCs of 17 for bards, you are still behind even your lowest level spells. Fascinate would only start catching up around levels 7-10. Your method would make Fascinate fairly useless for a long time.

And since adding ANY save would weaken it from the current state, a high save will still be less powerful than it is now. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a save added to it, but I don't think this method would work due to the way it would cripple low-level bards. I don't think it is overpowered now, since if it were, more people would be requiring a bard in their party. As it stands, I think it is a useful tool to have, but hardly a deciding factor on any quest. Like any other ability, a good party makes it powerful and a bad party makes it completely useless.

[Shade]

As it stands now, the ability is plain insanely overpowered at level1. It should not hold that type of power.

It's so powerful that a maxxed out wizard with every raid gear item available would be better off taking 1 level of bard for the best crowd control ability in the game. AOE no fail stop everything song..

You can get more then DC8 at lvl with my idea.
You can get
4 (4 rank, +1 item, +3 skill focus 8/2 or human and +1 enhancement +2 HV1)
5 (20 charisma) (drow, or 18 +2 item, or +1 item +1 tome, reasonable number, even higher is possible)
=9 (or up to 12 if you have max tomes and AP available)

Since your level1, you'd be using this on kobolds.. Which have a -1 will save. So theyd have to roll a 10 to save.. That equals 50% chance, which is very fairly balanced for such a powerful ability that can stop a horde of kobolds in there tracks. And later on it can scale up to the point where it 95% effective against the most elite mobs.

[Freeman]

As it stands now, the ability is plain insanely overpowered at level1. It should not hold that type of power.

It's so powerful that a maxxed out wizard with every raid gear item available would be better off taking 1 level of bard for the best crowd control ability in the game. AOE no fail stop everything song..

You can get more then DC8 at lvl with my idea.
You can get
4 (4 rank, +1 item, +3 skill focus 8/2 or human and +1 enhancement +2 HV1)
5 (20 charisma) (drow, or 18 +2 item, or +1 item +1 tome, reasonable number, even higher is possible)
=9 (or up to 12 if you have max tomes and AP available)

Since your level1, you'd be using this on kobolds.. Which have a -1 will save. So theyd have to roll a 10 to save.. That equals 50% chance, which is very fairly balanced for such a powerful ability that can stop a horde of kobolds in there tracks. And later on it can scale up to the point where it 95% effective against the most elite mobs.

So, a level one character with maxxed out gear, skill focus, and maxxed charisma will have a 50% chance of success against regular kobolds on normal difficulty?(That's if they have a -1 Will save. From my experience, most mobs saves are bumped up much higher than their PnP counterparts) And then it only works for approximately 6 seconds(It may start out higher, but I don't think it is much higher), unless they take damage first. Yeah, that's a powerful ability there. For your wizard example, the duration would be the same. I wouldn't exactly call that a powerful ability. I've seen lag stop things for longer than that.

Seriously, I've heard people talk about how the wizard/sorc FOD'd everything, or hit them with Flesh to Stone, many times both on the boards and in game. Fascinate is currently the most powerful CC ability in the game. It has been since the game started. Yet I've never seen a wizard take a level of bard to gain the ability. Most characters who splash a level of bard are doing it for healing wands and UMD. Fascinate can be a powerful ability, but the limitations on it are the reason that it is rarely used. I don't use it that often on my bard. In most cases my spells work faster and just as well. Against any named mobs, it is completely useless.

The mechanics of Perform are overpowered on paper, due to the lack of a save for the ability(There should be a save, but I see no reason to make it as low as you want). But in practice, the ability's practicality of use makes it a highly situational tool. Even then, it requires a decent party to leverage the advantage it gives you. I've mentioned using it several times during a quest and had other party members comment that they had completely forgotten about it. If people forget the ability exists, I don't think it is an overpowered aspect of the game.