Bard's Fascinate... overpowered?!?!

[Laith]

fascinate will have a save soon: something it is decidedly lacking at the moment. Or at least it's been hinted that the perform skill will have more of a purpose soon.

it will be an impossibly high save, that basically requires a roll of a 20, but it will have a save.

...and it'll be funny to watch the bard panic because of those 20's

edit: here's to hoping my ninja powers don't go away with the forum maintanence.

[Spell]

Situation:
The group turns a corner and encounters 10 orcs.
The orcs see the group and charge.
Battle begins.
The bard hops around like a flea on crack and
fascinates everything. The mobs then sit there quietly while the group smartly takes them out one-by-one.
-----------------

Playing a caster, I am constantly having to make
saving rolls to hypontize mobs. And Hypnotic Pattern
lasts about as long as a Barbarian can make two swings.

Sorry Bards, but this just seems totally out of whack.

Sorry Turbine, but you are constantly cutting wizards/sorcerers off at the knees with unbelievable reductions in spell durations and god-like saves made by mobs. We we're given more xp to placate us. And with the new Meta-magic chages coming, low level casters are getting a slap in the face.

I applaud Bards getting a highly useful and functional capability. But please stop reducing casters to PK/FoD spammers. With a full spellbook our spells are systematically being shredded into oblivion.

Instead of cutting the bard and further cutting casters, why not bring casters back up to their full potential?!?!?

[In_Like_Flynn]

Bard hate. That's new.

[Spell]

Bard hate. That's new.

Not Hate, really.
Just pointing out a wide discrepancy in fucntionality.
Or at least, so it seems to me.

[Laith]

I must have missed that tidbit.
Thanks.

nothing concrete has been said, but there was a hint.

edit: ninj-OWNED!

[Spell]

fascinate will have a save soon, or at least it's been hinted that the perform skill will have more of a purpose soon.

it will be an impossibly high save, that basically requires a roll of a 20, but it will have a save.

...and it'll be funny to watch the bard panic because of those 20's

edit: here's to hoping my ninja powers don't go away with the forum maintanence.

I must have missed that tidbit.
Thanks.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Bard hate. That's new.

I guess you missed the fireworks when PvP was first introduced.

[GeneralDiomedes]

It seems you have a very low mob-save tolerance. Or are you trying to cast un-heightened Hypnotism on enemy clerics and casters? Will saves of melee creatures in the 'Hold are _anything_ but god-like.

Skilled Enchanters in the 'Hold make it look easy, sorry to say.

[Zenako]

A few differences...

Bard fascinate DOES require fairly close proximity, meaning the bard needs to mingle with the intended fans. (now some haste, Displacement, GH, etc does make it easier). Also I believe I have been interrupted by failed Concentration or standing up status (been tripped) and not gotten off the intended effect. Unlike spells like Hypnotise which works at range, fascainte is a burst from the Bard with a "short range".

A skilled bard will have a bunch of songs available, BUT those same song slots are used for Spellsong, or Inspire Courage or Inspire Greatness, etc. As for going to needing a perfrom check, that would not be a huge obstacle for most bards keep it maxed anyway and have high boost items stashed away. It would also be interesting to see which save would apply? I suspect WILL and those are often the poorest saves for most mobs. I know my bard would have a net perform of about 40 off the top of my head with out even thinking about things like Rabbit gloves or extra feats. DC40 will saves...as mentioned, looking for 20s will be the name of the game.

[Draclaud]

They have enough nerfing to do without us giving them more ideas on how to nerf us. It already seems as though the have an us vs them mentality with their "NEW!:" Changes...Let's not give them any more targets shall we?

[Gypsy_Mouse]

The mobs then sit there quietly while the group smartly takes them out one-by-one.

Really? You've seen groups play smartly when there's a bard in the party?
I need to move to your server then because I NEVER get the chance to fascinate ANYTHING unless I race ahead of the group (which I'm not going to do just to use one ability of my bard).

In the rare cases where I get a chance, the group suddenly decides it's a race to see who can kill the fascinated mobs the fastest. And half the time I'm STILL in the middle of the gathered mobs and wind up taking a second beating AFTER I've taken my initial beating from being in the middle of them and trying to get the song off.

You know what's even worse? When I get told, "Don't bother, we'll have them killed faster than you can play your song." ~sigh~ Thanks, I guess I'll just stand off to the side and watch out for our casters until you want a buff.


And like Zenako said, I've been interrupted (very rare at this point) and I've come out of my song beaten almost to a pulp. And the mobs do get a chance to save (I've seen the save shield pop up shortly after they've been fascinated), not to mention I've seen mobs NOT get fascinated (again, rare).
So it's not some tricked out range spell with no consequences for the bard.

[WolfSpirit]

Dear Mr OP,
Please provide a listing of all your characters present and future.
All Bards will be sent this list to prevent any future buffing of your Bard-Hating Characters...

j/k

On the serious side, We do love our fascinate just the way it is. Recent changes made our songs of peace and serenity cause instant HATE AND WANTON DESTRUCTION URGES from any nearby monsters. (Hence the flea on crack comment from observers)
Insult to injury would be after getting whacked to within inches of our death, only to have the monsters NOT stop all that whacking and finish us off... Sad day indeed when the Bard (secondary healer and possible raise deader) is no longer putting those lovely buffs on you because of over-wacking...

On a side note, I don't think there are many Bard builds that don't simply Max out the perform just because they may incorporate other effects into the skill.

[bigal4458]

First, caster are not underpowered. I play one. And the functionality of a bard is buff, CC, heal, although far from restricted to this as many have created some neat builds (i.e. battlebards). But the number of buff/heal/cc bards out there are few and far between, and that is because we get no offensive spells. They take patience and skill to play well.

Fascinate is powerful, yes, but far from overpowered. How does it compare to a sorc heightend PK, FoD insta-kill of multiple enemies?

[Furgulder]

Playing a caster, I am constantly having to make
saving rolls to hypontize mobs. And Hypnotic Pattern
lasts about as long as a Barbarian can make two swings.

Im sorry, how many Hypnottic Patterns can you cast as compared to my 17 songs per rest? Well of course that is 17 songs before I have to cast spell singer for you, and inspire courage/greatness for the melee characters.




I love how people always gripe "Nerf them, they can do something better than me!" or "They can do it, so make me more powerful!" in this game

[Zenako]

Yah...my Bard wants some wicked powerful IK spell in his repretoire now! I mean an awesome soundburst might give the mob an earache, but I want a SPLITING Headache, like FoD!!!....

Sorry, but we all have our powers and skills. I can stop the mobs in there tracks, BUT, they are still there and probably need to be taken out someway by melee or other spell. Kinda like a Timeout for the mobs. Gives the party a chance to sort itself out.

As for getting a party to use the skill of a bard to good effect, all it takes is some people with any experience to just show everyone how effective it Can be when done right. guild runs will make great use of those skills....

[Capstern]

Sorry Bards, but this just seems totally out of whack.

Sorry Turbine, but you are constantly cutting wizards/sorcerers off at the knees with unbelievable reductions in spell durations and god-like saves made by mobs. We we're given more xp to placate us. And with the new Meta-magic chages coming, low level casters are getting a slap in the face.

I applaud Bards getting a highly useful and functional capability. But please stop reducing casters to PK/FoD spammers. With a full spellbook our spells are systematically being shredded into oblivion.

Instead of cutting the bard and further cutting casters, why not bring casters back up to their full potential?!?!?

Can you tell me how this is the case. Since the last mod or so my caster has become near all powerful. My guild members and I have 7 casters between us in a guild of about 5 active players and they are more or less godlike in their ability to kill anything. Reaver, titan regular mobs - heck I can even FoD the dang cat men most of the time and their SR is ********.

I have more sp I cast way faster and I dont really need my firewall to last 2-3 min. 40 second or so usually kills just about anything.

I can start at the door to one of the dragons and run the the rune and pop the skellies and kill everything thats there - live and laugh about it

I am totallly sick of all the casters out there bemoaning how they arent as powerful as melee...nope they arent they are way more powerful. By far.

[flowmaster]

I applaud Bards getting a highly useful and functional capability. But please stop reducing casters to PK/FoD spammers.

Don't forget haste, gotta have haste, and dancing ball and firewall, yea, that's the ticket.

[The_Old_Sage]

Sorry Turbine, but you are constantly cutting wizards/sorcerers off at the knees with unbelievable reductions in spell durations and god-like saves made by mobs. We we're given more xp to placate us. And with the new Meta-magic chages coming, low level casters are getting a slap in the face.

I applaud Bards getting a highly useful and functional capability. But please stop reducing casters to PK/FoD spammers. With a full spellbook our spells are systematically being shredded into oblivion.

Instead of cutting the bard and further cutting casters, why not bring casters back up to their full potential?!?!?

For the life of me, I don't understand posts like this. Why is it that individuals feel that the only solution to an apparent shortfall in their own characters is through the nerfing of other characters?

Seriously, the decision of casters to resort to PK/FoD has nothing to do with the perceived shortcomings of the various crowd control spells, it has everything to do with casters wanting to kill mobs directly rather than just control crowds for the melees to cut down.

Heighten is your friend. My wizard's PKs/FoD are resisted and saved against as much as his crowd control spells, and when comparing the use of mana vs. the net result, it's not always the most efficient.

[pastor_dex]

OP, if you want to just quit the game now, I won't even ask for your stuff.

[Bilger]

My main is a Bard and even in guild groups mobs die to fast for me to even attempt to fascinate. Even with any type of save unless mobs have a +40 to that particular save my bards 50 perform is going to stop everything unless a 20 is rolled.
As far as casters are concerned they are overpowered and I have a capped Wizard so know what I am saying.
For example even at low levels guild group 2 wiz and 3 sorcer 1 cleric levels 2-4 went through TR without deaths or any troubles at all charm is an amazing thing when put to good use in the right situation.
Lets not get into the mana thing either my bard has over a 1000 mana compared to the 1300 + on Wizards and 1800+ on sorcerers so overall who is overpowered not bards!!