Guide pt III - Nuker

[Mindspat]

I would say worrying about AC on a sorcerer is the opposite of a better option. I'll take my Displacement+Jump+Stoneskin over anything else.

Many MOBs are dispelling buffs. AC is a bit harder to deBuff then it is to remove your active mitigation. One effect in its self isn't nearly as important as them all together. The AC is not going to keep your rear safe alone and modifying your mitigation with as many parameters as possible is the easiest path to victory.

My inital post was in reply to someone who though the OP had a decent idea while the person voiced interest in a similar build but with a high AC. *This* is where the origination of my post came from, and to think that a template is a static build which cannot be improved upon is only true if you play World of Warcraft.

And seriously, who's "worrying"?

[Aspenor]

Thing is....

What did you have to give up to get your high AC sorcerer? Inventory slots. Action points. Build points in dexterity.

It's not necessarily an "improvement," it's just not what this character was built for.

[Mindspat]

Thing is....

What did you have to give up to get your high AC sorcerer? Inventory slots. Action points. Build points in dexterity.

It's not necessarily an "improvement," it's just not what this character was built for.

Uhm, I don't think I gave up anything. I believe it's very possible to build AC into a nuker without forfieting the nescesities. My damage is still high and my surviability is even higher.

Inventory slots: have plenty of room for loot.
Action points: 1 rank in Elven Arcane Fluidity
Feats+stats: Finnesse+Dexterity

The only deterence from an A-typical generic build would be the Dexterity and Finness. My build was *not* intentional and simply graduated to the degree of sucess from good loot runs. I rolled the character when DDO launched and learned shortly afterwards this was not the Dungeons & Dragons I had known. Thankfully, my decisions had paid off nicely while still being a sucessful nuker.

Keep in mind that the strength of a build is going to based upon the flexibility of what a user can do with it. Rigid formats without diversity aren't the best options. Being able to tweak upon a build to accent a players playstyle exemplifies a good foundation for a build.

Most importantly, The OP presents a good foundation for nuking Sorcerers although if a few areas of "optionals" were available it would have been more rewarding to a thread labled as a "Guide".

[Aspenor]

Most importantly, The OP presents a good foundation for nuking Sorcerers although if a few areas of "optionals" were available it would have been more rewarding to a thread labled as a "Guide".

This was part 3 of three seperate build templates that could be considered part of a "series."

In these threads I outlined which spells were chosen, why, and their best functions and uses, mostly for people new to playing a sorcerer.

Nowhere have I ever said "there is one and only one proper way to build a sorcerer." I do have my opinions about what is more useful, but I leave up to others to tweak anything I post as they see fit. I'm not going around telling people their build is gimp with 50 AC on a sorc, I'm just saying that you had to give up things to get there.

And you most certainly did have to give up some things. You need to wear armor, carry a shield, wear a protection item or dodge item, stuff like that.

So, I'll rehash the point that this thread is oh...around 6 months old now, and the AC issue has been touched in every single one of the versions of the guide, I'm kindof sick of the same arguments being put out there over and over again. My argument hasn't changed not in favor of AC, and the argument for AC also has not changed, it just is what it is. A choice, a choice that I chose differently. Nobody is going to come up with some sudden revelation that changes my mind.

With only 12 AC and over 250 hit points this character does extremely well, and as I mentioned before he is no longer a straight nuker. In mod 6 a straight nuker will specialize almost entirely into fire and ice, and also spend his extras on electricity enhancements, and take ball and chain lightning for fighting devils.

I chose a different route. I went spell pen/instadeath combined with the same fire/ice spec nuker. He's definitely more generally focused, but he is a major killing machine that is rarely outkilled. I don't have a single crowd control spell, so he has to be.

[Mindspat]

I chose a different route. I went spell pen/instadeath combined with the same fire/ice spec nuker. He's definitely more generally focused, but he is a major killing machine that is rarely outkilled. I don't have a single crowd control spell, so he has to be.

And becuase you had a great foundation to build upon you have a kick ass Sorcerer.

[Deragoth]

You are missing the point. It's Ac + Displacement+Jump+Stoneskin. Personally my AC is 39-40 with 238 hps and he just doesn't die real easily.

No, I think you're emphasizing a point that is moot. I don't mean any offense by that, but unless you're in the mid 50's(60s in elite vale quests?), I feel wasting item slots on AC gear is counterproductive. You're getting hit on elite as much as I am with a low 20s AC. That's not to say that you're ineffectual... Just that you could be better optimized for that high-end content.

Personally my AC is low 20 something with 222hps, a +24 spell penetration (Level7 and under), and a 36 charisma. I just don't die hardly at all

[Varis]

No, I think you're emphasizing a point that is moot. I don't mean any offense by that, but unless you're in the mid 50's(60s in elite vale quests?), I feel wasting item slots on AC gear is counterproductive. You're getting hit on elite as much as I am with a low 20s AC. That's not to say that you're ineffectual... Just that you could be better optimized for that high-end content.

Personally my AC is low 20 something with 222hps, a +24 spell penetration (Level7 and under), and a 36 charisma. I just don't die hardly at all

I'll have to support the AC argument. I have been running a nuking sorcerer with armor since day 1, MUCH before people ever considered its viability.

While a mid 40's or 50 AC won't protect you against a lot of elite content, assuming it is the same as 20 AC is just plain wrong. I see a trend that when they need something less then a 19-20 to hit, your AC sucks...might as well be 10, etc etc.

It's just a factor of our survivabiliy but one we should not neglect. 100% fort alone won't keep us up, 200+ hp's alone won't keep us up, high AC alone won't keep us up, high saves alone won't keep us up.
EVERYTHING has to be at a high level.

As a PURE nuker I don't use diplomacy, I don't use CC unless I have to. As a pure nuker it is my job to **** everything off, bunch it up and nuke the **** out of it. To survive that, I need to be tough as hell.
So far having a high AC has been a very important factor in how effective I play my character.


As correctly pointed out though, AC alone is NOT something you can depend on, especially on elite.

[Pfamily]

Oops...
I'll let ya know when I try tonight.

Dang...I hope you're wrong!

Just an update:
Exchanged IMT for GSP no problem.

[Aspenor]

Decided to update this thread with level 16 stuff instead of rewrite it.

[Deragoth]

I'll have to support the AC argument. I have been running a nuking sorcerer with armor since day 1, MUCH before people ever considered its viability.

While a mid 40's or 50 AC won't protect you against a lot of elite content, assuming it is the same as 20 AC is just plain wrong. I see a trend that when they need something less then a 19-20 to hit, your AC sucks...might as well be 10, etc etc.

It's just a factor of our survivabiliy but one we should not neglect. 100% fort alone won't keep us up, 200+ hp's alone won't keep us up, high AC alone won't keep us up, high saves alone won't keep us up.
EVERYTHING has to be at a high level.

As a PURE nuker I don't use diplomacy, I don't use CC unless I have to. As a pure nuker it is my job to **** everything off, bunch it up and nuke the **** out of it. To survive that, I need to be tough as hell.
So far having a high AC has been a very important factor in how effective I play my character.


As correctly pointed out though, AC alone is NOT something you can depend on, especially on elite.

You bring up a good point. Playstyle dictates what makes a build effective. I'm a heavy twitch player (long-time FPS player with some organized competition), so of course I don't see a lot of value in AC when I could be equipping various immunities and undispellable resists in its place.

[dragonspeake]

Is diplomacy worth it?

[Aspenor]

Is diplomacy worth it?

Worth it?? Worth what? What are you going to use instead?

Yes, it's worth it.

[Ridag]

Worth it?? Worth what? What are you going to use instead?

Yes, it's worth it.

To be fair here Asp, it really can come down to playstyle.

Personally I have done just fine without diplo on my sorc (who was built long before diplo was useful), and have used it to great effect on other characters.

I like to keep Concentration and UMD maxed, enough points into tumble to keep a positive modifier and the rest in jump. If I cannot handle the agro, I don't agro it.

[Aspenor]

To be fair here Asp, it really can come down to playstyle.

Personally I have done just fine without diplo on my sorc (who was built long before diplo was useful), and have used it to great effect on other characters.

I like to keep Concentration and UMD maxed, enough points into tumble to keep a positive modifier and the rest in jump. If I cannot handle the agro, I don't agro it.

Not sure why you would bother with jump.

Jump has an effective cap of 40. You can achieve this with a jump spell and a pair of jump +10 boots, which both stack.

And yes, jump really is effectively capped at 40. You don't jump any higher with a 55 jump than with a 40 jump. The marginal benefit decreases so fast that it's not worth having more than 40 jump.

Additionally, well-used diplomacy can be indispensable for a sorcerer, IMHO. I can go through full quests with well-used diplomacy never getting hit more than a few times, because as soon as something gets close, I tell it to attack something else. Wearing my item, I rarely fail.

[Ridag]

Not sure why you would bother with jump.

Jump has an effective cap of 40. You can achieve this with a jump spell and a pair of jump +10 boots, which both stack.

And yes, jump really is effectively capped at 40. You don't jump any higher with a 55 jump than with a 40 jump. The marginal benefit decreases so fast that it's not worth having more than 40 jump.

Additionally, well-used diplomacy can be indispensable for a sorcerer, IMHO. I can go through full quests with well-used diplomacy never getting hit more than a few times, because as soon as something gets close, I tell it to attack something else. Wearing my item, I rarely fail.

Well...

1. I like to hit the jump cap without an item.

2. I like to be able to get my butt off the ground if I am dispelled.

3. I can go through a full quest without ever using diplo and never get hit more then a few times.

4. Not only do I not want to have to dedicate an item slot to jump, I really do not want to dedicate an item slot to diplo.

5. I've honestly never had a situation where I needed to shed agro. If I have agro I want it.

6. I write "diplomacy" on my fireballs.

7. Agro management skill are not that hard to learn.

8. Diplo would take up yet *another* hotkey.

9. Some day the jump cap will be raised and you will all be very very sorry.

10. I like pie.

There you go. All perfectly explained.

Like I said it all comes down to personal choices and playstyles. We cannot all be clones, how would that be any fun?

So you keep on "talking" to the mobs, I'll still be twitching around blasting.

[Aspenor]

W
9. Some day the jump cap will be raised and you will all be very very sorry.

I'm fine with all that, except this one, because they won't remove the cap.

The cap is there to prevent people with 80 jump from getting to places they're not supposed to with jumping, due to quest design.

[Ridag]

I'm fine with all that, except this one, because they won't remove the cap.

The cap is there to prevent people with 80 jump from getting to places they're not supposed to with jumping, due to quest design.

I did not say the cap would be removed, just that it would be raised. Very large difference there, I would really like to see the cap at 50 or even 60. If it could possibly be done without breaking anything currently in the game. Or even capped differently on an instance by instance basis if it were to break something major in a quest.

[DoctorLove]

Started a sorc using most of this template (and that from pt 1 of the guide) and came across some problems with the enhancements you have listed here.

I took Energy of the Dragon Blooded (cost 1 pt), Sorcerer's Charisma (2 pts), Elemental Manipulation I (1 pt), Force Manipulation (1 pt), and Sorcerer's Concentration (1 pt). That's a total of 6 pts, right?

Well the problem is that on your enhancements list the closest feasible enhancements I could take would be Lineage of Force and Lineage of Elements, but both of these require 7 points spent, and I only have 6 points spent. There seems to be another gap after that because the next two closest possible Enhancements are Elemental Manipulation II and Sorcerer's Concentration II, but they both require 10 points spent.

Am I missing something? Any help appreciated!

[BrotherAsmodi]

Decided to update this thread with level 16 stuff instead of rewrite it.

Are you going to update the InstaKill for post Mod6 with lvl16 stuff?

[Aspenor]

Are you going to update the InstaKill for post Mod6 with lvl16 stuff?

Um, I guess I can, if you request it shall be done...I'll do it one day when I'm bored at work.