Do the devs realize the new Extend Spell change hurts paladins and rangers?

[Gimpster]

you level 1-2 spellcasters shouldn't have extend spell imho.. sure you have the ability to cast spells, but is that your primary role?

That is misleading- the question isn't really about Extend spell... it's about any metamagic used by characters who mostly cast low-level spells. Would you claim that level 1 wizards shouldn't use any metamagic? Then why do they get that bonus feat?

The change makes applying metamagic to low-level spells more expensive than to high level spells, which obviously hurts characters who make big use of low-level spells. This includes:
Low level wizards. Mid level wizards.
Low level sorcerers. Mid level sorcerers.
Low level clerics. Mid level clerics. High level clerics.
Mid level paladins High level paladins.
Mid level rangers.

i would reccomend to all paladins and rangers to focus on their combat rather than their casting

It's a joke to have to repeat this again: A paladin who takes Extend Spell IS focusing on combat.

[Zenako]

Let me toss this into the mix.

How do you view all the other changes to the Metamagic mechanics? I understand that extend was by far the most selected Metamagic boost of them all, since it is the only one that gave you a bargain value. If a specific character option becomes a default choice by many players, that indicates to me from a game design standpoint that something is not balanced.

That is why some weapons are considered exotic. To get that extra benefit you need to spend a feat to overcome the non-proficient penalty. If it was not exotic but merely martial, how many people would choose Bastard sword over Longsword for example? All part of game balance.

I suspect that the designers were seeing that some of the current crop of metamagics were not getting selected or used, since their perceived cost to benefit ratios were unfavorable. So in an effort to try and balance those costs one way is to change the scaling from a percentage to a surcharge. The surcharge needs to be meaningful or it is irrelevant, so it has to be more than a couple of points. If it is too high then it again becomes irrelevant from once again being too costly.

If you are making the case that you will no longer have enough mana to maintain certain spells (DF for example) 24/7 between shrines, I am not convinced. Did you keep it up even if no mobs were within sight? If so that was wasteful. I personally view DF as a boost, not a state of being, and as such only use on occasion. (Disclaimer: I do not have extend feat on my Paly and never even considered it, nor do I have it on my cleric.) It is my experience that in a great number of quests, you end up hitting a new shrine before even normal duration spells expire, or get them dispelled by death or eye tryant before then.

[Gimpster]

I understand that extend was by far the most selected Metamagic boost of them all, since it is the only one that gave you a bargain value.

That's quite true. And as already explained many times: the new metamagic gives a bargain value to high-level spells with ANY of the feats, but an inflated cost to low-level spells.
Current system: effect-per-spellpoint is balanced across high and low level spells
New system: effect-per-spellpoint increases with higher-level spells.

Obviously, this means the new system relatively hurts casters of low-level spells. This will even hurt the level 14 Battle Clerics who cast Extended Divine Favor 24/7.

[Gimpster]

In regards to the other posts in this thread, Pallies have not been buffed because at the beginning of the game they were "OVERPOWERED." What a novel idea.

It is quite true that DDO's paladins have experienced multiple nerfs over time. This was intentional.
The +5 Divine Favor damage bonus? Way too strong: nerfed.
The +2 AC aura from just 1 pally level? Too strong: nerfed.

But the fact that the new metamagic change nerfs the combat duration of paladins by 24% is probably unintentional. It's likely that the devs were picturing the new metamagic system as only a buff for high-level arcane casters, and didn't even think about what it would do to paladins (or other users of low-level metamagic spells). Thus, it is very appropriate to point this out for them.

A change such as I suggested here would remove the nerf to low-level spells, while keeping the boost to high-level magic. Of course, it's difficult to know what the devs intended with the change, because they don't tell us.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Is anyone disputing that applying certain Metamagics to level 1 and 2 spells costs more? I don't think so.

However, nobody has yet to explain why this is the wrong thing to do, other than you seem to have a personal issue with your Paladin being 'nerfed'. Higher level casters benefit immensely, offensive casters benefit immensely, and for anyone with a lick of strategy in their bones, lower level casters will not be hurt. Instead of being expected to buff the entire party with buffs they will never use, buffs will be applied selectively based on need and circumstance. That in itself is enough of a benefit for me.

[Gimpster]

However, nobody has yet to explain why this is the wrong thing to do, other than you seem to have a personal issue with your Paladin being 'nerfed'.

False. It has been explained over seven times so far. It is a bad thing to do because it will weaken characters who use metamagic on low level spells. The OP is wrong to single out paladins and rangers, because it also hurts mid-level sorcs, wizards, and clerics: anyone who doesn't have the high-level spells yet, but still wants to use metamagic. I will not elaborate on that again, because you could simply scroll up if you're willing to read the details.

[Vua]

That is misleading- the question isn't really about Extend spell... it's about any metamagic used by characters who mostly cast low-level spells. Would you claim that level 1 wizards shouldn't use any metamagic? Then why do they get that bonus feat?

The change makes applying metamagic to low-level spells more expensive than to high level spells, which obviously hurts characters who make big use of low-level spells. This includes:
Low level wizards. Mid level wizards.
Low level sorcerers. Mid level sorcerers.
Low level clerics. Mid level clerics. High level clerics.
Mid level paladins High level paladins.
Mid level rangers.


It's a joke to have to repeat this again: A paladin who takes Extend Spell IS focusing on combat.

What you don't get is that it's balanced out for casters when using their higher level spells. You lose a bit here and you gain a bit there. While casters are losing a little bit on the low end spells they are gaining a ton on the high end. I understand that you lose some SP as a low level caster but you aren't supposed to be low level forever. Gain a couple levels and you WIN.

I have a paladin and I have a ranger(that took a level of wizzie and has extend) and this doesn't really affect our classes much, if it all. It will cost me 3 extra spell points to cast an extended barkskin if I want to. I should start crying now. Does it come back to divine favor again?

I think it's great to extend divine favor so I can chase archers and casters around. It will still be on when I finish casting restorations and wand whipping the barb back to full health. I cast an extended divine favor so I can kill the last mob left alive and then spend a minute and a half finding the next fight so that first swing I get will be at +3. Then I slip behind the Wizard and he gets hit so I don't fail a concentration check while casting my next extended divine favor that will be ready to go just as the fight ends again.

[Gimpster]

What you don't get is that it's balanced out for casters when using their higher level spells.

Wrong. I get that, but it doesn't matter. I have explained why too many times for me to repeat it again for someone who doesn't read what's already here.

[Gimpster]

I already have Mental Toughness for the +75 spell points it provides. If I want another there is Improved Mental Toughness available for +70 spell points. It isn't until I have both of those that Extend would have become a contender.

Under the current system, Extend IS better than Mental Toughness or Improved Mental Toughness for a paladin.

[Vua]

Wrong. I get that, but it doesn't matter. I have explained why too many times for me to repeat it again for someone who doesn't read what's already here.

I read. I comprehend. I just don't agree with you. I think you ****ed away a feat by taking extend on your pally (just like I did with my ranger) so you can cast useless extended divine favors. It's a waste of spell points.

Smile. It's not so bad. It's just a game.

Have a nice day.

[Gimpster]

But what if i took 1 level of wizard on my WF, so i could shield myself and use repair wands?
Then i would say considering i get a free metamagic feat Extend is the only thing worth while to me.
Dont ya think?

That's a good point. Suppose a warforged fighter/barb wants to take a caster level so he can use repair wands. How does he choose between wizard and sorc?

Both classes give him the same wand usage, so it's a question of which grants other spells that are more useful. The main level 1 spell helpful to a warrior is Shield, for +4 AC with a two-handed weapon.

Under the current system, a level 1 wizard gets more total time Shielded, because his free metamagic lets him Extend it cheaply. But in the new system, Extended Shield uses more spellpoints per second, so the sorcerer would get more Shield time, because he has more total mana.

Thus, once this change goes through, it will be fair to send a free class-respec token to every Warforged fighter or barbarian with 1 level of wizard.

[Ziggy]

That's a good point. Suppose a warforged fighter/barb wants to take a caster level so he can use repair wands. How does he choose between wizard and sorc?

Both classes give him the same wand usage, so it's a question of which grants other spells that are more useful. The main level 1 spell helpful to a warrior is Shield, for +4 AC with a two-handed weapon.

Under the current system, a level 1 wizard gets more total time Shielded, because his free metamagic lets him Extend it cheaply. But in the new system, Extended Shield uses more spellpoints per second, so the sorcerer would get more Shield time, because he has more total mana.

Thus, once this change goes through, it will be fair to send a free class-respec token to every Warforged fighter or barbarian with 1 level of wizard.

Well if the WF wants extend they would go wizard as its free. and the sorcerer would spend more points on charisma to be able to cast spells.(they start with a 6)
Ive got a 14 INT with a power 8 helm, and have about 250 SP's. Even wearing adamantine armor with its 35% failure i dont run out of spell points between shrines

[Rekker]

14 Paladin
14 Ranger

Both have Extend.

I don't see the point about not extending because they will get debuffed any ways. I only see this happen in a few quests. Lay down extended buffs at the entrance of PoP, save the beholder for last and the buffs last till the end. Or extended buff a whole 12 man raid with Barkskin at the start of the Reaver. Saves the Cleric/Wiz from having to do that job so they can focus their SP on other more important things. Comes in real handy now, but not after the next update. Most of us with higher level toons have had them for a long time prior to this announced change. We didn't have the option of making them after the update. If it goes through as planned I would love to change out Extend, don't know if I will though.

[Girevik]

Under the current system, Extend IS better than Mental Toughness or Improved Mental Toughness for a paladin.

I think the accuracy of this statement is based heavily on the play style of the Paladin and his group.

If you play a Paladin in a group that knows exactly where every critter is in every quest you enter, and basically perma-haste-sprint from fight to fight, you may be right.

If, however, you play a Paladin in a group that generally dungeon crawls through most content, and has lots of between fight time, then individual encounter length needs to be considered. If most of your encounters last less than one-minute and are followed by greater than one-minute treks to the next encounter, then two-minute DF's are going to add very little to your combat effectiveness. In that case, the ability to cast 7 more DF's is going to be of greater use than less, but longer, DF's.

[Gimpster]

If you play a Paladin in a group that knows exactly where every critter is in every quest you enter, and basically perma-haste-sprint from fight to fight, you may be right.

If, however, you play a Paladin in a group that generally dungeon crawls through most content, and has lots of between fight time, then individual encounter length needs to be considered.

No. That is completely backwards.

A group that rushes forward faster has LESS need for extended buffs, because they have a greater chance of reaching and finishing battles before the spells expire. It is someone who moves slowly and takes his time that will benefit more from extending the spells.

[Gimpster]

You have yet to explain how this is a bad thing for the game as a whole.

I should not need to justify that making low-level casters weaker is a bad thing.

[GeneralDiomedes]

False. It has been explained over seven times so far. It is a bad thing to do because it will weaken characters who use metamagic on low level spells. The OP is wrong to single out paladins and rangers, because it also hurts mid-level sorcs, wizards, and clerics: anyone who doesn't have the high-level spells yet, but still wants to use metamagic. I will not elaborate on that again, because you could simply scroll up if you're willing to read the details.

You have yet to explain how this is a bad thing for the game as a whole. So far we have explained that it will cost more to Extend level 1 and level 2 spells.

[Gimpster]

and who really extends level 1 and 2 spells at low levels. not I and i have 2 clerics a sorc and a bard.

1. If you'd pay a little attention, you'd see that the change harms users of ALL metamagic on low-level spells.

2. A low-level cleric who doesn't Extend Bless, Divine Favor, and Shield of Faith is seriously nerfing his party.

[Cowdenicus]

and who really extends level 1 and 2 spells at low levels. not I and i have 2 clerics a sorc and a bard.

[GeneralDiomedes]

1. If you'd pay a little attention, you'd see that the change harms users of ALL metamagic on low-level spells.

2. A low-level cleric who doesn't Extend Bless, Divine Favor, and Shield of Faith is seriously nerfing his party.

Like any good systematic change, it affects everyone. All low level parties will have to adjust.