Do the devs realize the new Extend Spell change hurts paladins and rangers?

[gpk]

Pallies are not supposed to get +3 AB/Dmg from that spell until level 16. look it up.

Skirting around the issue AGAIN. Please read up on those PnP vs DDO posts in this and other thread I'ts really tiring having to repeat everything for you since you refuse to do the brainwork.

[Cowdenicus]

I think what we are dealing with, is a couple of people with p@nis envy. They think to succeed in the mission you have to top the almighty kill count, and they are sick of seeing Dwarven Rangers beating them by more than half again.

That's what this is all about now isn't it?

They got something, generally Gimpster is a better poster than this. I actually tend to agree with alot he says, generally. Too bad he is wrong here.

[Yabba]

Skriting around the issie and given up again have we? At least your post this time wasn't "go break a barrel"

You didn't answer the question.

You claim you will be less effective if you can't keep up DF because extended ones will cost more SP than before and you won't have enough sp's to cope.

I think asking how often you run out of sp's goes straight to the heart of the issue. Don't you?

[Cowdenicus]

You told me 16 HP ALL of the time is better than having +3 DMG/AB for LONGER in DDO, I want you to explain to me why.

No I said it was better than having extend, huge difference.

[Cowdenicus]

You didn't answer the question.

You claim you will be less effective if you can't keep up DF because extended ones will cost more SP than before and you won't have enough sp's to cope.

I think asking how often you run out of sp's goes straight to the heart of the issue. Don't you?

You are confusing the situation with logic. Please refrain from this in the future.

[BUpcott]

Since you refuse to accept that Divine Favor is an offensive combat spell, please enlighten us with some better feats to take at level 6.

I never said it wasn't an offensive spell; I said extend is not an offensive feat.

Since I don't know your build I can't say which feat would have been available to you but I just list a few. And yes I am aware that some have certain prereqs but thats part of planning a build out. But as I have said earlier I am not here to judge your build; just that you don't deserve compensation for the change to metamagic feats.
So feats available at lvl6 (depending on your build):
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Power Attack
Weapon Focus (opens Power Critical)
Sap (have seen some fighters use this and effectively; specially since there is no save)
Skill Focus: UMD (if a umd build)
Stunning Blow (nice on a dwarf pally with dwarven tactics)
Toughness

[gpk]

No I said it was better than having extend, huge difference.

Extend gives me +3 DMG /AB during more fights, I don't see how much clearer I can make it.

[Gimpster]

This is assumption and not fact.

Wrong. That is 100% undeniably factual. Anyone who disagrees with it has demonstrated insufficient capability to deserve any more free education from me.

No. again incorrect logic. The burden is on Turbine, not any player. I can agree with the sentiment of what Turbine is doing because I can, as you can choose not to agree.

Wrong. The burden goes to anyone who wants to demonstrate that this change is an improvement. You've decided to attempt that- to succeed, you will need to get to work.

The real issue is Pallies aren't even supposed to get the +3 from it yet, thats what I would like to see fixed. They aren't supposed to get the +3 until level 16.

Wrong. That is a separate issue, but an interesting one. All the melee classes in DDO got a damage boost over their PnP basis:
Fighters: Fighter's Strength III, Critical Accuracy IV
Barbarians: Power Rage II, Critical Rage II
Ranger: Favored Damage, Power Attack with light weapons
Paladins: 1:1 caster level for Divine Favor

Reducing paladins back to the 1:2 caster level from D&D could be acceptable if the other warrior classes had their extra damage boosts nerfed away from them. Obviously, that will never happen.

I don't think there is a spell cost difference now with empower at that low of a level, but i could be wrong there.

Correct. You are wrong there.

[Cowdenicus]

Extend gives me +3 DMG /AB during more fights, I don't see how much clearer I can make it.

which you shouldnt get due to an improper paladin buff.

That being said, when a buff comes for casters you shouldn't really be complaining especially since it is caster related that you are improperly buffed to.

You are looking at this all wrong, now you have a free feat to use on whatever you want since extend won't provide you with any benefit anymore. or will it still provide you with enough benefit and you just want to rant about 5 sp?

[Gimpster]

But as I have said earlier I am not here to judge your build; just that you don't deserve compensation for the change to metamagic feats.

That much is true: passing out feat respecs to impacted characters would be a bad way to address the problem. Much better would be to fix the problem at its source, and not nerf low-level metamagic.

So feats available at lvl6 (depending on your build):
Combat Expertise

CE? Are you going for pure comedy here?

[gpk]

I never said it wasn't an offensive spell; I said extend is not an offensive feat.

Since I don't know your build I can't say which feat would have been available to you but I just list a few. And yes I am aware that some have certain prereqs but thats part of planning a build out. But as I have said earlier I am not here to judge your build; just that you don't deserve compensation for the change to metamagic feats.
So feats available at lvl6 (depending on your build):
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Power Attack
Weapon Focus (opens Power Critical)
Sap (have seen some fighters use this and effectively; specially since there is no save)
Skill Focus: UMD (if a umd build)
Stunning Blow (nice on a dwarf pally with dwarven tactics)
Toughness

Well the whole point is I'm being told it's my fault for being such a noob for taking Extend , I'm also being told there are any number of feats BETTER that my noob caracter should have taken and 1 of them I'm told is toughness.

I'm simply asking them to prove what they say.
Instead I get "doooooooom" , "zomg jealous of my uber dorf ranger" etc etc.

LOL too funny!

Clearly they have given up , thanks for playing!

[Yabba]

Come on. Tell me how often you run out of SP's?

That's the real issue isn't it. You can't keep DF up if you run out of SP's so you take extend to make a saving.

But if you never run out of SP's, you don't need to make the saving. Excess SP's don't carry over from shrine to shrine or quest to quest.

[Cowdenicus]

Wrong. That is 100% undeniably factual. Anyone who disagrees with it has demonstrated insufficient capability to deserve any more free education from me.

so the game is no longer fun because extend costs 5 more spell points for level 1 spells and 3 more spell points for level 2. Gotcha.

Can I have your stuff, since the game wont be fun anymore?

Wrong. The burden goes to anyone who wants to demonstrate that this change is an improvement. You've decided to attempt that- to succeed, you will need to get to work.

No I said I like the change, because I play 3 of the 4 classes this is to improve. Sorceror, bard, and 2 clerics.

Wrong. That is a separate issue, but an interesting one. All the melee classes in DDO got a damage boost over their PnP basis:
Fighters: Fighter's Strength III, Critical Accuracy IV
Barbarians: Power Rage II, Critical Rage II
Ranger: Favored Damage, Power Attack with light weapons
Paladins: 1:1 caster level for Divine Favor

I am all for the nerfing of overpowered melee classes. Have been from the start. What they did to BAB/attacks is a disservice to the game and has caused a. the monty haul problem, and b. the needing of significantly making mobs more powerful which makes some spells (and turning) almost useless.

Reducing paladins back to the 1:2 caster level from D&D could be acceptable if the other warrior classes had their extra damage boosts nerfed away from them. Obviously, that will never happen.

I dunno, are pallies an offensive (as opposed to defensive, not in an offending way) class or a defensive one? As I recall pallies get other boosts that are defensive in nature that other classes dont get.

Correct. You are wrong there.

It has happened every once in a while, it doesnt bother me.

[Cowdenicus]

Well the whole point is I'm being told it's my fault for being such a noob for taking Extend , I'm also being told there are any number of feats BETTER that my noob caracter should have taken and 1 of them I'm told is toughness.

I'm simply asking them to prove what they say.
Instead I get "doooooooom" , "zomg jealous of my uber dorf ranger" etc etc.

LOL too funny!

Clearly they have given up , thanks for playing!

post the build, otherwise dont ask for advice.

[Cowdenicus]

That much is true: passing out feat respecs to impacted characters would be a bad way to address the problem. Much better would be to fix the problem at its source, and not nerf low-level metamagic.

Nerf Low level metamagic. Go for it, metamagics shouldnt even be available to paladins or rangers. Just primary casting classes (to include bard).

Pallies lose nothing over this. 5 sp every 2 minutes of combat, bah. How much sp do you think it costs me to see a pally zerg ahead. I bet it is more than 5 sp every 2 minutes.

[Yabba]

Nerf Low level metamagic. Go for it, metamagics shouldnt even be available to paladins or rangers. Just primary casting classes (to include bard).

Pallies lose nothing over this. 5 sp every 2 minutes of combat, bah. How much sp do you think it costs me to see a pally zerg ahead. I bet it is more than 5 sp every 2 minutes.

Too true.

He still won't answer my question.

HOW OFTEN DO YOU BURN THROUGH YOUR 500+ SP's?

[Ziggy]

Nerf Low level metamagic. Go for it, metamagics shouldnt even be available to paladins or rangers. Just primary casting classes (to include bard).

well this is technically not correct.

Anyone who can cast spells can take any of the metamagic feats.

[Yabba]

well this is technically not correct.

Anyone who can cast spells can take any of the metamagic feats.

And anyone who can swing a dagger can take melee feats. It doesn't mean they should.

[Cowdenicus]

well this is technically not correct.

Anyone who can cast spells can take any of the metamagic feats.

Oh I understand that Ziggy. My point though is they are doing this to ENHANCE spell casting which it does beautifully.

If 2 levels (the bottom 2 I might add) take a VERY small hit on a couple of metamagics there is no reason to make an uproar about it, this will not break the game or even a play experience.

I mean seriously they are talking what, 5sp for a level 1 spell extended, and 3 sp, for a level 2, without saying anything about how there level 4 spells are cheaper.

[Yabba]

I think his computer crashed.

I really wanted to know how often he ran out of sp's