The Real Reason Raids Are Hard to Join

[HumanJHawkins]

Anyone who thinks that the main reason PUGers are not invited into raids is greed over loot, is missing the point. When you design a raid so that you have to spend 1 or 2 hours just getting to it, then if one person makes a simple mistake it is all over for everyone... Well you get the point...

Who in their right mind would invite unknown randomness into that kind of situation? If you want more people invited into raids, make the penalty for individual error substantially less.

[Laith]

Anyone who thinks that the main reason PUGers are not invited into raids is greed over loot, is missing the point. When you design a raid so that you have to spend 1 or 2 hours just getting to it, then if one person makes a simple mistake it is all over for everyone... Well you get the point...

Who in their right mind would invite unknown randomness into that kind of situation? If you want more people invited into raids, make the penalty for individual error substantially less.

of our 4 raids*, 2 are boss fights that are completed in 20-30 minutes.

*obviously not counting TS

[HumanJHawkins]

of our 4 raids*, 2 are boss fights that are completed in 20-30 minutes.

True... I spouted off while mentally focused on the VON raid.

Another reason that applies more broadly is that there aren't a heck of a lot of people ready for the raids, and a lot of people don't understand the requirements.

I like opening up raids to new people... I think it adds to the experience, although in truth, they are also often a liability. But for every PUG I have ever seen actually come along, there are 2 or 3 that join group and then turn out to not be ready. This is a minor annoyance, though I suspect it is another reason many groups will not invite PUGers.

I mean seriously... If you want to allow casual gamers to join RAIDs, why would you make them have to run (for example) The Crucible, Madstone Crater, and POP 15+ times each before they can join.

I have a toon that is reaver ready, and that is sweet fun to do. But even though I play a lot now this is annoying because I would also like to bring my other toons through it. And I would like to run the desert stuff once in a while instead of just Gianthold all the time so I can get them ready.

I didn't mean to turn this into a complaint... I am just trying to point out that there are a lot of reasons people are not freely invited to raids, and loot is probably at the bottom of the list.

.

[Impaqt]

If your not in a Guild.. Or your guild is too small to effectively raid, you need to at least make some friends in guilds....

Taking a pug or 2 on a raid isnt a big deal.. Its when you get 8-12 people thrown together that either have no idea what to do.. Or worse yet.. ALl have their own idea of what exactly needs to be done is where the trouble starts.

[sigtrent]

Just depends on what your attitude is.

Sometimes I just want to farm the loot or get the xp of favor and having folks mess it up is frustrating.

Other times I just want to hang out with folks and enjoy playing the game, and making mistakes or failing a quest is no big deal. Just got to sit back, relax and wantch folks explore and discover, or try your best to help them through the hard spots.

So I like both tight guild runs and sloppy pug action. It just depends on my mood and goals for the night.

[Locathus]

I have led PUG groups through all of the Raids except the Reaver (and don't plan to bother with that one). It can be done if the leader is patient and good at explaining things, and if everyone follows directions. If there are things that one person can do to mess things up (and there are a couple) then the leader needs to make those things clear ahead of time.

Failed PUG Raids usually have more to do with who is running the show than who is running along. Making the Raid easier doesn't change that.

.

[HumanJHawkins]

If there are things that one person can do to mess things up (and there are a couple) then the leader needs to make those things clear ahead of time.

Yes, there are ways a good leader can mitigate (some of) the potential damage. However, the fact remains that most raid groups do not want to add that burden to their leader. So regardless of whether the issue can be worked around or not, this still results in less PUGers getting invited.

Now, you could also say, "well, that's the raid party's loss because it is more interesting and fun to mix it up." Okay... That's fine (and I agree). But it is still irrelivant because most raid groups do not want the increased challenge and risk that this brings.

P.S. I said nothing about making the raids easier... I am definitely not asking for that. I am simply saying that if the goal is to get more PUGers invited, then make the penalty for a newbie mistake smaller... For example, let the raid start over without doing a whole prequest again.

[Sumac]

Most of the raids I have been on have been with my guild. We plan on going on the raid, we get as many guildies ready for the raid, and we go together on the raid. We will usually have a PUG or two with us and it has never been a problem. The people in the guild all know each other and are used to working together.

I have been on a few PUG raids where the entire raid is a pick up group. Surprisingly it went really well, but took a long time to get the group together. There were a few people who joined the raid and then found out they were not ready for it and had to drop.

We had a one PUG guy with us in VON once and he seemed to know what he was doing so it was all good. He played a joke on us and charged the dragon yelling "LE-ROY JEN-KINS!" as soon as we got into VON6. I thought I was going to die laughing once I got over the initial shock.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

You people don't pug enough... You seem to think every pug, and every non guildy, is a problem waiting to happen. That simply isn't my experience.

And btw, how is it that your guildies are all 100% perfect even their first time? A guild raid doesn't make it less likely to have problems, just more likely you will be understanding if you do have a problem.

[Hvymetal]

You people don't pug enough... You seem to think every pug, and every non guildy, is a problem waiting to happen. That simply isn't my experience.

And btw, how is it that your guildies are all 100% perfect even their first time? A guild raid doesn't make it less likely to have problems, just more likely you will be understanding if you do have a problem.

I think you hit the nail on the head, I PUG a lot & really my experience is that a majority of the players are capable and know what they are doing. The problem is that the few bad ones really stick out in your mind and artificially inflate the problem until you percieve every PUG as being unreliable &/or unknowledgable.

You guys need to get out more

[KiwiJoe]

If your a good player you will soon be noticed by other good players and invited back on future raids. Opportunies to join decent raiding guilds should follow.

The rest can fend for themselves.

It sounds a little rough but this is pretty much how it works.

[Ekental]

When you design a raid so that you have to spend 1 or 2 hours just getting to it, then if one person makes a simple mistake it is all over for everyone... Well you get the point...

Who in their right mind would invite unknown randomness into that kind of situation? If you want more people invited into raids, make the penalty for individual error substantially less.

Ever played WoW? EQ?
Yeah.. you think 1-2 hrs is bad, wait until you need to download a mod pack just to run the thing, then spend the next 8 hrs running the raid, during which time you get to sit around until your team needs to do their part, which in turn needs to coincide with another team's job with an error margin of seconds, after which you need to be on standby again.
Lets not get into what you needed to do as pre-reqs... again, for the nth time.

Clearly, there are far more people who feel compelled to do a raid like the above. Whether or not they like it is completely irrelevant.

[llevenbaxx]

You people don't pug enough... You seem to think every pug, and every non guildy, is a problem waiting to happen. That simply isn't my experience.

And btw, how is it that your guildies are all 100% perfect even their first time? A guild raid doesn't make it less likely to have problems, just more likely you will be understanding if you do have a problem.

QFT. I guess Im just not seeing these terrible pugs either. Do the raids often enough in pugs, usually short manning them to boot. Dont think that will change much in the near future except that the pug raids might take a little longer to get started, possibly waiting to fill ot an additional spot or two.

[CoolHand_Luke]

One reason I see not many PUGs being invited to raids is that some guilds have their "system" down almost to a science. Some raids I go on there is very little talk about what is going on, we are just doing it, and if there is talk it is socializing.

I do however get a chance to pug raids with my cleric. This is the best way to get invited. I'm not going to get into a debat of "needing a cleric 'cause others can do what they do" rant, but I think unarguable a healbot is the most effective healer in the game.

Everyone loves to be a melee character, hack, slask repeat, but my suggestion to PUGs is to have a cleric, you don't have to love it or be awsome at it (it helps) but by having one, the chances of being invited is greatly increased. As your cleric builds reputation with other characters, you will be invited to more raids.
This will give you the general idea of what goes on in the raids, and you will better understand what is going on. It is like a front row seat. Admittly most clerics are usually position in a spot, not having to shake and bake too much, following the masses watching red bars, not too much to it usually. In addition you will see listen to, and know the role of the melee. You listen to the weapons needed and the different tactics. Also, the group usually keeps track of you and ensures you are there... a lost fighter out of 7-8 of em... not critical. A lost cleric out of maybe two? You classes value is high.

Eventually you will be invited, but will have to save that your cleric is not ready because it is on a timer, but you have a fighter ready. You know thier role, you know and have the weapons needed and, now you are raiding your fighter and your cleric.

This is my suggestion. Personnally, I started raiding because I had a rogue. Un-affliated with a guild at the time a guild needed one. I got picked up, ran through vons 1-4, and was thrown into von5. Taught where the traps locked door, etc, were, and after such was invited to the guild. Then like most guilds we needed more clerics. So I built on when I got Drow favor. Grew up quick (everyone like to have a cleric in the party) and got invited to more and more raids .

Oh so to the point of why is it hard for PUGGER to raid... inexperience in the raid itself. Raids will tolerate an inexperenced cleric more readily than a melee class. Melee = dime a dozen.

[CoolHand_Luke]

You people don't pug enough... You seem to think every pug, and every non guildy, is a problem waiting to happen. That simply isn't my experience.

And btw, how is it that your guildies are all 100% perfect even their first time? A guild raid doesn't make it less likely to have problems, just more likely you will be understanding if you do have a problem.

Or that guildies and those I run with often know each others weaknesses and strengths. My guldies know I have a memory, or something, issue. I forget where quests are, even though I have done then an upteenth time. I get distracted or "lost" in dungeons. And usually, playfully, when ever we get a PUG in with us, they are warned not to follow me, because I am ocassionally wrong.

[Vinos]

The reason raids are hard to join is that with the exception of LFM's "need 20 wisdom to pull lever" or "need caster for reaver" there just isn't many LFM's up for raids. When MOD 5 comes raid LFM's will be even more scarce since given the new raid loot mechanic will discourage PuGs. Heck will even discourage raiding for that matter.

[Hvymetal]

The reason raids are hard to join is that with the exception of LFM's "need 20 wisdom to pull lever" or "need caster for reaver" there just isn't many LFM's up for raids. When MOD 5 comes raid LFM's will be even more scarce since given the new raid loot mechanic will discourage PuGs. Heck will even discourage raiding for that matter.

Personally I am not so sure of that, it may discourage some of the people that currently raid but it may also encourage others that don't currently raid much to raid more often. We really cannot say for sure what the net effect will be this is all pure speculation on everyone's part.

[Vinos]

Personally I am not so sure of that, it may discourage some of the people that currently raid but it may also encourage others that don't currently raid much to raid more often. We really cannot say for sure what the net effect will be this is all pure speculation on everyone's part.

Fair enough. Time will tell I guess but I know that personally I won't be raiding as much. The simple thought of a chance that no raid loot will drop makes me sick.

[llevenbaxx]

The reason raids are hard to join is that with the exception of LFM's "need 20 wisdom to pull lever" or "need caster for reaver" there just isn't many LFM's up for raids. When MOD 5 comes raid LFM's will be even more scarce since given the new raid loot mechanic will discourage PuGs. Heck will even discourage raiding for that matter.

I dont think there will be much of any difference. There will be the same exact amount of pug raids as there were before. I "know" many of the people I pug raids with. Just because we arent guildies doesnt mean we dont trust each other. I dont have a problem with trusting other puggers to do the right thing.

If anything it will simply eliminate some of this: "This, that and that item are already taken. Still want to come?", bs that Im seeing so much of all the sudden.

People raid at off times from there guild, this happens frequently now and will continue. Pugs does not directly equate to strangers/noobs, that is very different.

[Vinos]

I dont think there will be much of any difference. There will be the same exact amount of pug raids as there were before. I "know" many of the people I pug raids with. Just because we arent guildies doesnt mean we dont trust each other. I dont have a problem with trusting other puggers to do the right thing.

If anything it will simply eliminate some of this: "This, that and that item are already taken. Still want to come?", bs that Im seeing so much of all the sudden.

People raid at off times from there guild, this happens frequently now and will continue. Pugs does not equate to strangers/noobs, that is very different.

The PuG's being full of great players or noobs doesn't really matter much in regards to my post. Fact is there isn't many LFM's for raids and MOD 5 will not change that for the better. You are right in that it will get rid of those X item is spoken for garbage. Never liked that and would never join a raid where that was in the LFM.