Arcane Raise Dead

[Ghoste]

My misunderstanding of Eberon lore then.... I'm a 3.0 person myself and never picked up an Eberon book

Still, the arcanes are the ones capable of repairing their physical forms more easily than devine casters and arcanes can create non-living constructs (big difference from wf) so I still think it makes sense that they can do the big repair job to the up from the dead.

Also, from a playablity standpoint, warforge get huge hatered and discrimination from a portion of the player base. Why not give Wizards/Sorc who have such an interest (particularily WF ones) the abilty to become a WF cleric of sorts? They already have this option. Classes other than clerics already have access to raise dead, albeit with a umd check.

Corrections in green.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Corrections in green.

That is really ignorant when people on these forums call their opinions and
comments "corrections". We can have a useful discussion without getting into that nonsense.

I agree that a living construct is different than a non intellegent animation. However, and once again, I'm not an expert in Eberon lore, isn't it true that WF became intellent almost by accident and that there are both sentient and non sentient wf? That being the case, perhaps the line in Eberon between life and animation are not so different as you might imagine.

They already have this option. Classes other than clerics already have access to raise dead, albeit with a umd check.

A UMD check is not the equivilent of a raise spell. Just as the DDO mages have an equivilent repair for each cure spell I'm suggesting that for reasons of playability it makes sense to give them the raise & res equivilent as well. Most wizards don't have a great UMD and a cleric doesn't have to dump in UMD to do their job, why should a WF cleric equivilent have to? At some point playability should come into the question and given the predjudices a WF only group with a WF only mage acting as cleric becomes an increasingly interesting way to go.

And don't try to get too logical in your argument or I'll ask you to explain how a rogue can fake a connection to the devine based on a use MAGIC device check or how a scroll created by an evil cleric calling ont he powers of an evil god can be used by a good cleric. Some parts of this game already defer to simplicity and fun over what actually makes sense.

[Ghoste]

Take it easy, wasnt trying to **** you off. From what i see though, the "corrections" I put are not opinion, but details from the official rules you overlooked.

Note to self - dont use the word "corrections" for that guy, he gets offended easily by it.



And repair spells are not the "equivalent" to cure spells. They only work on constructs, the reason for that being why they are classified as transmutation spells as opposed to healing spells.

You may not always agree with the logic of those who write the rules, but to say they avoid using any is ignorant. Speaking of which, the Wizards of the Coast forums would be a better place to try to implement changes to such fundamental rules than these forums.

[Laith]

Just as the DDO mages have an equivilent repair for each cure spell I'm suggesting that for reasons of playability it makes sense to give them the raise & res equivilent as well.

Eberron corebook does not introduce any "Mass Repair" or "arcane raise dead" like spells. I can't say if other books did.

Also, i've always wondered if certain "healing immune" WF could be raised in the first place (those spells have subtype: healing) short of miracle/wish. Apparently raising WF has been allowed though (thru errata or core-book, i don't recall).

of course, none of that is reason to restrict such a spell from DDO.

and don't try to get too logical in your argument or I'll ask you to explain how a rogue can fake a connection to the devine based on a use MAGIC device check or how a scroll created by an evil cleric calling ont he powers of an evil god can be used by a good cleric.

Because the creation of the item is the part that required the connection to the divine (or arcane) powers. Creation required the preparing and casting of the spell into the item, stopping short of the final activation.

Stories about magic are filled with people that pick up artifacts and activate them without any specific knowledge: that's where UMD came from.


then again, if you can't find SOME way to explain how something could "logically" take place in a fantasy world, you need to learn to role-play.

[Tanka]

In actual Eberron fluff - a WF is dead beyond repair when they hit -10 HP. Between 0 and -9, they are merely incapacitated and will remain alive (but inert) until someone comes along to repair them.

So, by that line of thought, it could be considered that a WF has no soul and cannot, technically, be raised.

But what would the fun of that be in an MMO? So Turbine overlooks that rule (thank the maker!) in preference of making the game more enjoyable for those who play WF.

So, no, a WF-only Raise Dead Arcane spell should not exist. There is no precedent for it to in PnP.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Take it easy, wasnt trying to **** you off. From what i see though, the "corrections" I put are not opinion, but details from the official rules you overlooked.

Note to self - dont use the word "corrections" for that guy, he gets offended easily by it.

To me such corrections come off as smug attempts to twist what someone else is saying. A quote should be a quote, you can then add comments after it, but to change what someone is actually saying in a quote seems wrong.

And repair spells are not the "equivalent" to cure spells. They only work on constructs, the reason for that being why they are classified as transmutation spells as opposed to healing spells.

I meant equivilent effect when used upon constructs. repair light does for constructs what cure light does for fleshies.

You may not always agree with the logic of those who write the rules, but to say they avoid using any is ignorant. Speaking of which, the Wizards of the Coast forums would be a better place to try to implement changes to such fundamental rules than these forums.

I'd buy that if Turbine stuck to the D&D rules which they clearly do not. APs are implimented totally differently. XP is totally different. CR is totally different. Many monsters are totally different (A red dragon the size of the one in Von6 should kick our ass at L10-12 if it had half the abilities it is supposed to). Attacks per round and order of attack progression are totally different. I will bet you 1000plat that crafting will not follow either the base or alternative craft point rules when its implimented. Turbine, like any DM, has implimented some house rules for playability, I'm suggesting a minor house rule change that I don't think unbalances the game. (Ok, wait, Turbine is not like other DMs, I've never met a DM with this many house rules)

[Ghoste]

In actual Eberron fluff - a WF is dead beyond repair when they hit -10 HP. Between 0 and -9, they are merely incapacitated and will remain alive (but inert) until someone comes along to repair them.

So, by that line of thought, it could be considered that a WF has no soul and cannot, technically, be raised.

But what would the fun of that be in an MMO? So Turbine overlooks that rule (thank the maker!) in preference of making the game more enjoyable for those who play WF.

So, no, a WF-only Raise Dead Arcane spell should not exist. There is no precedent for it to in PnP.

If you're going to say "in actual Eberron fluff" dont exclude the part where the rules say they can indeed be raised. This is part of the reason there is still debate in Eberron as to whether or not warforged have souls.

So if a human is unconscious between 0 and -9 hp, but dead beyond healing when they hit -10, by your reasoning they...have no souls and cant be raised?

[Tanka]

If you're going to say "in actual Eberron fluff" dont exclude the part where the rules say they can indeed be raised. This is part of the reason there is still debate in Eberron as to whether or not warforged have souls.

I think I missed that part. I'll read the WF section and any relevant sections on lunch. (Yes, I have the book at work with me. )

So if a human is unconscious between 0 and -9 hp, but dead beyond healing when they hit -10, by your reasoning they...have no souls and cant be raised?

Well, there's no argument that Humans have souls. But I do recall reading that a WF at -10 or less is dead beyond repair.

I'll go over the sections again to be sure.

[Ghoste]

I'd buy that if Turbine stuck to the D&D rules which they clearly do not. APs are implimented totally differently. XP is totally different. CR is totally different. Many monsters are totally different (A red dragon the size of the one in Von6 should kick our ass at L10-12 if it had half the abilities it is supposed to). Attacks per round and order of attack progression are totally different. I will bet you 1000plat that crafting will not follow either the base or alternative craft point rules when its implimented. Turbine, like any DM, has implimented some house rules for playability, I'm suggesting a minor house rule change that I don't think unbalances the game. (Ok, wait, Turbine is not like other DMs, I've never met a DM with this many house rules)

Fair enough. I dont feel the rules you are suggesting fit in a way with how I see the magic of Eberron, but you do. Others may agree with you, and that is after all what these forums are for - getting those ideas out there.

Well, there's no argument that Humans have souls. But I do recall reading that a WF at -10 or less is dead beyond repair.

I'll go over the sections again to be sure.

There is indeed a line that states that, I wasnt denying that. I was comparing that to a similarity in other races who go below -10. You can still heal them from 0 to -9, but beyond that they are beyond healing and a raise dead is required, just like with WF.

from srd20:
When your hit point total reaches 0, you’re disabled. When it reaches -1, you’re dying. When it gets to -10, you’re dead.

[Tanka]

There is indeed a line that states that, I wasnt denying that. I was comparing that to a similarity in other races who go below -10. You can still heal them from 0 to -9, but beyond that they are beyond healing and a raise dead is required, just like with WF.

Well, the thing with it is, is that WF don't bleed out. Other living creatures do.

And quoting the SRD in an Eberron-specific ruling is a bit of a problem.

But I have the book and I'll re-read the sections momentarily, and if necessary call up the FAQ regarding it.

[Ghoste]

I dont get where you're going with that not bleeding out part. What does that have to do with having a soul or not? There are other creatures, non constructs, that also dont bleed out.

If it's an inference to whether they are "alive" or not, the Eberron Campaign Setting book makes it clear that they are, unlike other constructs, in fact alive. Even the followers of the Silver Flame agreed on that point, who for a point of lore disagree that they have souls.

[Tanka]

I dont get where you're going with that not bleeding out part. What does that have to do with having a soul or not. There are other creatures, non constructs, that also dont bleed out.

Well, yes, but those are generally already-dead creatures or creatures with regeneration.

The main point is that an incapacitated WF will not die after a few hours. In fact, he'll stay alive until somebody either hits him again to bring him below -10, or repaired by skill or spell.

Reading the book now that I've finished my soup. Will get back to you on the specifics in the book.

[Tanka]

OK, looks like I'm wrong. (Go figure. )

As a living construct, a warforged can be raised or resurrected.

Nothing about reincarnated, however, so there goes the idea of being randomly turned into a kobold.

[Ghoste]

Oozes for one...

Humans can also stabililze, the difference being they heal naturally. That is actually also possible for warforged who take the reforged prestige class. Taking that class means focussing on their living aspects, since all warforged are living constructs.

[Ziggy]

Well, yes, but those are generally already-dead creatures or creatures with regeneration.

The main point is that an incapacitated WF will not die after a few hours. In fact, he'll stay alive until somebody either hits him again to bring him above -10, or repaired by skill or spell.

Reading the book now that I've finished my soup. Will get back to you on the specifics in the book.

FIXED in red tanka.

... yeah i know what you meant.

[Tanka]

FIXED in red tanka.

... yeah i know what you meant.

Hits for damage to bring him below -10, thusly killing him.

So there.

[Ziggy]

Hits for damage to bring him below -10, thusly killing him.

So there.

oops i misread.

[Tanka]

oops i misread.

[Ghoste]

How would hitting someone bring them above -10?

Example: goblin hits you again. Does 8 dmg. You go from -8, pass below the -10 threshold, to -16.

Unless you meant hit with a heal spell...

[Tanka]

How would hitting someone bring them above -10?

Example: goblin hits you again. Does 8 dmg. You go from -8, pass below the -10 threshold, to -16.

Unless you meant hit with a heal spell...

I didn't. Ziggy misread.