Arrowdar dead now with Mod 5.

[Missing_Minds]

NEW - Monsters that are hiding or invisible can no longer be tab (or `) selected unless a player can detect the monster using their Spot or Listen skills.

While I do not have any problem with this per say (there is logical reasoning for it), what are you going to give us back in turn?


ANY mob that can sneak has the ability of "hide in plain sight" Which is flat out wrong. For those of you who do not know what this is, it means they can go into sneak mode right in front of you and not be seen. None of the mobs we have in the game should have this ability, yet obviously they do.

ANY PC with a decent charisma score is going to be seen/have agro way before any one else. Case in point 1) My fighter in full plate, no ranks in move silently, using a shield, and a Cha of 10 (he's a drow) can run up to a troll, oger, etc. trip them, stun them, and take down half their hit points before the NPC even realizes they are there, yet my bard or sorc can't get within 50 feet even sneaking when they are some how spotted.
Case in point 2) In undead quests, archers will target those with the highest charisma first and constantly go back to shooting them. REGARDLESS if they are in the room or not. In rooms where the floor falls out and you have to go down to take out a few archers and arcanes, my sorc did NOT hop the 40 odd feet down to join the rest of the party, yet it was the target of EVERYTHING down there. I'm not even standing on the edge to jump and I'm being targeted.

ANY NPC with a trip attack has NO timer for it. They can trip attempt each attack. Canines are KNOWN for this lame donkey trick.

Once seen by any mob you can NOT hide from them again. Yeah, I've run around the room and out of it via haste, went behind the stairwell and hid even before the npc made it out of the room. They STILL make a direct beeline for me with no regards to the fact that they can't see me. I had a friend keep watch to verify that I was under the staircase before they made it out of the room.


So, game design management... You are going to nerf us, how about you get the devs to fix the AI also.

(as I don't play Risa and turbine won't bother put any of my characters on there to test things out, if those who do play Risa can report that they did fix things, I'd love to hear back from you in this thread. Thanks.)

[Ziggy]

it has nothing to do with charisma. its the fact that your an arcane caster.

For some reason the mobs like to go after casters first.

wait thats exactly what we do.

They just forget to fight the things that are hitting them and keep attacking whether or not youve attacked them first.

I noticed a good example last night while running deleras.

The ghostly skeletons kept running to the cleric(only caster in the group) and left us alone even though we were smacking em around.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

How friggin easy do you need this game to be?

For god's sakes, man up, Nancy.

[Tavok]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

How friggin easy do you need this game to be?

For god's sakes, man up, Nancy.

I think shes arguing the point that this is a big nerf to us, not to the mobs. The fact that our sneak does very little but they can go invisible right in front of us is kinda BS.

I think that they should introduce a skill respec with this mod also, since this would be screwing over a lot of people who didn't originally take spot or listen.

[negative]

Ziggy's right, it because the mobs target casters. Trust me, wizards have the same issue.

That said, most mob's shouldn't be able to Hide in Plain Sight unless they have the feat or some other special ability (like the Hobgob rogues). On the other hand, we should never have been able to tab hidden mobs, so, I'm not sure there needs to be some sorta "trade-off" made.

[Riddikulus]

I like the change. I always thought it was cheesy that we could tab target an invisible enemy and shoot at it.

I hope though that the change applies equally to the mobs as well as the players.

And the real test will be to take a high stealth rogue into the PvP pit.

[Cinwulf]

I do think mobs are broken in the fact that once they agro you they always know where you are. You should be able to come out of hiding, attack a mob abd then break los then go into hiding again to loose their agro.

[Zyklon]

I like the change. I always thought it was cheesy that we could tab target an invisible enemy and shoot at it.

They need to fix See Invisible then (which is suppose to show hidden creatures), because when I first got an item clickie I though cool, I can see all the hobgoblins, etc... It never worked. Thought it would show the outline like a high Spot/Listen.


-

[SneakThief]

They need to fix See Invisible then (which is suppose to show hidden creatures), because when I first got an item clickie I though cool, I can see all the hobgoblins, etc... It never worked. Thought it would show the outline like a high Spot/Listen.


-

See Invisibility is only 'supposed' to let you see creatures that are magically invisible, not sneaking.
It's supposed to work the same way for the mobs, though for them See Invisible means even a 40+ hide/ms cant get by them, soo.

See Invisibility
Divination
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

You can see any objects or beings that are invisible within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible. Such creatures are visible to you as translucent shapes, allowing you easily to discern the difference between visible, invisible, and ethereal creatures.
The spell does not reveal the method used to obtain invisibility. It does not reveal illusions or enable you to see through opaque objects. It does not reveal creatures who are simply hiding, concealed, or otherwise hard to see.

[Braddock_Tharmwell]

Don't tell the Dev but some folks have been sorta been abusing the whole Aggro on the Caster mechanic lately. (shhhh)

Group up, send the Caster to go gather up some mobs, and run back and get behind or into the middle of the sheild blocking semi-circle or circle of Sheild holders and start nuking baddies. A tight formation is a safe place for the Caster and they will keep Aggro until everything is near dead or just in mop-up phase.

Think of the movie "The 300" for sheild formation styles. LOL

Just use what you perceive as a benefit for them, against them. It is lots of FUN!

[blakbyrd]

it has nothing to do with charisma. its the fact that your an arcane caster.

For some reason the mobs like to go after casters first.

wait thats exactly what we do.

They just forget to fight the things that are hitting them and keep attacking whether or not youve attacked them first.

I noticed a good example last night while running deleras.

The ghostly skeletons kept running to the cleric(only caster in the group) and left us alone even though we were smacking em around.

Well, in fairness, isnt that largely how many players also act? When an Arcane skellie pops up, players ignore all the other mobs attacking them until they take out the arcane. Similar with Hob Clerics.

TO me this sounds fine, although it is annoying. Especially when we are playing a game largely based on the fact that we strategize encounters because we know how each mobs acts, and because of AI, that rarely changes. Still, I do not mind it so much, but what screws up the whole thing to me is that the mobs (as mentioned) are working off different rules.

Archers are exceptionally annoying. Not only do they have unlimited range, they can keep someone target at unlimited range as well. To top it off they have an entirely different ranged mechanic. Mob Archers get to lob their shots, which means they can shot over things to hit you that you cannot. IE, if they are slightly down a hill they lob their shots to hit you, but you cannot shoot them because your arrows go in a straight line and hit the ground first. Why do mob archers use an entirely different ranged mechanic?

Back on point, the AI has changed. Mobs do now go after the casters. As I have seen in WoW as well, the cleric can be way behind the group even a room away, while the rest of the group stands at a door they are about to open. They open the door and if the space is there the mob will ignore everyone, run right past them and head to the next room with the cleric which the mob could not have even seen to start with. From my experience it isnt CHA based, it is caster based (arcane or divine), but regardless the effect is basically the same. Mobs will ignore those beating them up to get to the caster, but again this is fairly similar to how the players act as well, which should be a fair assumption and mechanic if the mobs didnt work off completely different rules on how they can fight, but that is a mute point anymore.

Although the addition of Subtle Spellcasting enhancement is a neat idea, the new change to AI makes this pretty much a useless enhancement to take, since casters dont even have to do anything to automatically gain aggro now, what benefit is there to lessening aggro chance on an attack, when you get aggro anyways. Similar is also the change with some CC Spells. Web for instance, now instantly gains aggro to the caster by any mob that gets caught or safely walks through a web, making it a rather dangerous spell to use anymore (but I guess in some ways maybe it makes sense, but not when they break free and have already lost half their HP to a fighter beating them up).

No matter what AI is the most complex and difficult thing for any MMO. It is something they are always working on. No matter how complex it gets it will still seem stupid or silly. No MMO has the processing power necessary to make it truely a dynamic "almost thinking" AI, so it will always be simplistic and expected in its actions. The only real way to offer any sense of occasional dynamic AI is for them to keep tweaking and changing it from time to time, which in most cases I think is good to keep things a little less static.

[Ziggy]

Well, in fairness, isnt that largely how many players also act? When an Arcane skellie pops up, players ignore all the other mobs attacking them until they take out the arcane. Similar with Hob Clerics.

yeah thats exactly what my third line says

[Vyctor]

it has nothing to do with charisma. its the fact that your an arcane caster.

Actually I was told by an in game GM, that the game is being programmed so that the characters with higher charisma scores will draw initial aggro. When I asked about any logic behind it the response I got was "sorry that is the way it is being programmed."

[Ziggy]

Actually I was told by an in game GM, that the game is being programmed so that the characters with higher charisma scores will draw initial aggro. When I asked about any logic behind it the response I got was "sorry that is the way it is being programmed."

yeah and diplomacy works on chests.

there is a modifier called command. which increases your charisma skills by 2 but also makes you easier to see, and mobs will attack you more.

But i think the GM was confusing the 2.

GM info and what is true, sometimes are not the same.

[Eladrin]

Actually I was told by an in game GM, that the game is being programmed so that the characters with higher charisma scores will draw initial aggro. When I asked about any logic behind it the response I got was "sorry that is the way it is being programmed."

The in game GM was incorrect. Your charisma has no effect on whether or not you will be targeted first by monsters. In fact, with rare exceptions, neither does your class or race. (Rust Monsters prefer to eat tasty Warforged, for example.) A character with a high Charisma will, however, have better success with Diplomacy and Intimidate, which will alter a monster's targeting decisions.

There was a longstanding bug where the player farthest away from the monster when it activated would typically be the monster's initial target, but that's been fixed. (That bug did make it very likely that the arcane casters or healers would be the monster's initial victims.)

[Laith]

In-game GMs are not developers. I'd venture to say that fairly often players understand the game better than GMs do.

[Vyctor]

The in game GM was incorrect. Your charisma has no effect on whether or not you will be targeted first by monsters. In fact, with rare exceptions, neither does your class or race. (Rust Monsters prefer to eat tasty Warforged, for example.) A character with a high Charisma will, however, have better success with Diplomacy and Intimidate, which will alter a monster's targeting decisions.

There was a longstanding bug where the player farthest away from the monster when it activated would typically be the monster's initial target, but that's been fixed. (That bug did make it very likely that the arcane casters or healers would be the monster's initial victims.)

That's good to hear, I was just passing along information that was passed along to me Thank you for the correction.

[Roguewiz]

Mob aggro in this game is screwey. I've watched a mob, that was engaged with another PC, break combat and charge me for no reason, take a swing...crit, and run back to the tank. Then I get berated for pulling aggro. I always laugh at the morons that say "Well you shouldn't be getting aggro."

(Granted, I have a big "shoot me, I'm a squishy" sign painted on my butt. I'm a firm believer that all Archers in this game come equiped with "Arrows of Raquelis Seeking")

Smart AI is fine, however, the smarter the AI, the less fun the players will have. If you have mobs performing the same things that players can do, we wil eventually lose interest.

[GoldyGopher]

The in game GM was incorrect. Your charisma has no effect on whether or not you will be targeted first by monsters. In fact, with rare exceptions, neither does your class or race. (Rust Monsters prefer to eat tasty Warforged, for example.) A character with a high Charisma will, however, have better success with Diplomacy and Intimidate, which will alter a monster's targeting decisions.

There was a longstanding bug where the player farthest away from the monster when it activated would typically be the monster's initial target, but that's been fixed. (That bug did make it very likely that the arcane casters or healers would be the monster's initial victims.)

I searched the past posts but couldn't find the exact posting I was looking for.

It has been explained to us in the past that the Artificial Intelligence used in controlling mobs is similar to the process that many parties go through when entering an engagement. The AI determines a threat factor for each member of the party and their relative location to the encounter. Characters are than engaged in the order from the highest to the lowest threat. The result is generally Arcane Spell Casters will receive the highest threat modifier as they have the ability to do the most DPS, followed by Tanks, secondary fighters (including exposed rogues), and lastly divine clerics. After the encounter starts the threat factor for each of these characters is reassessed almost on a second by second basis.
I have seen this to be true almost 100% of the time. My clerics never get any agro even when they lead the charge into the encounter. My arcanes almost always get target immediately even when they are out of Spell Points.

Jeff

[Jolani]

The problem with casters being targeted first, is that all monsters do it, even mindless undead and vermin. Zombies, scorpions, and the like should not be able to decide what to attack. Players are intelligent, a simple spider is not.